From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Oct 7 22:13:11 1996 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:30:26 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #170 tariqas-digest Sunday, 29 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 170 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: frank gaude Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 07:17:30 -0700 Subject: RUMI 2381 LOOK AT LOVE how it tangles with the one fallen in love look at spirit how it fuses with earth giving it new life why are you so busy with this or that or good or bad pay attention to how things blend why talk about all the known and the unknown see how unknown merges into the known why think separately of this life and the next when one is born from the last look at your heart and tongue one feels but deaf and dumb the other speaks in words and signs look at water and fire earth and wind enemies and friends all at once the wolf and the lamb the lion and the deer far away yet together look at the unity of this spring and winter manifested in the equinox you too must mingle my friends since the earth and the sky are mingled just for you and me be like sugarcane sweet yet silent don't get mixed up with bitter words my beloved grows right out of my own heart how much more union can there be ghazal number 2381, translated March 9, 1992 by Nader Khalili. tansen ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:21:10 +0100 Subject: [none] I have two minds one big, one little My little mind chooses who is friend and who is not Percieves threat and fear and masquarades as righteousness My big mind loves because that is all it can do; It knows no boundary and is calm and peaceful. My little mind is comparing self to everything And assigning who to like and not to like, And seeking for itself justification (for itself). My Big mind sees only this: That behind the face of all it sees Is the love of God, and that is all to see... My little mind says this is round and anyone that says it's square, can't be right! My big mind says, Don't side with one against the other, Just surrender to My Love and See My Love for All... Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Ayesha Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:50:51 -0600 Subject: The Oil Lamp Salam brothers and sisters in Allah, Can someone please help me? I know there is a wonderful passage in the Koran about lighting a lamp in a niche, but I cannot seem to find it - can someone tell me which chapter it is in please? Thank you, Health, happiness and wisdom to all Ayesha ********** Ayesha_abdelghani ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ The birds have vanished into the sky and now the last cloud drains away. We sit together, the mountain and me Until only the mountain remains. Li Po. ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:04:47 -0400 Subject: Re: A dream, and Time to Separate? Salaam aleikum! Ayesha wrote to share some dreams, and I responded via private e-mail with a note of caution about sharing dreams with anyone other than her spiritual teacher. My choice to respond in this manner was motivated by the extreme heat being generated on the list in the past few days. However, after considering the matter, I am expanding on the subject openly (with my typical librarian-ish, quote-filled post), because I think that all of the heat is being accompanied by a certain amount of light -- light that illuminates the difference between sohbet (i.e., the spiritual conversation that takes place in a Sufi circle) and discussions on a leaderless Internet mailing list. I am personally very conservative about sharing dreams, or offering interpretations for them. This conservatism is based on my limited understanding of the tradition of dream interpretation in Islam and in certain Sufi orders, in which dream interpretation is regarded as a gift given only to those with a certain level of knowledge. William Chittick and Sachiko Murata, both Islamic scholars, write of dreams in the Islamic tradition: "How do we understand dreaming? In Islam, dream interpretation has been considered a gift that is given to the prophets. The most famous example is provided by the story of Joseph, which is retold in Surah 12 of the Koran... When he was finally released from prison in Egypt, it was because he was able to interpret the dream of the king... It (is) generally recognized that the understanding of the human psyche is not given to everyone. Ultimately, since the human being is a divine form, one must have direct knowledge from God in order to understand the real significance of dream images. Nevertheless, a certain amount can be understood by anyone. The most important principle of the science of dream interpretation is appropriateness or correspondence. In order to interpret a dream correctly, one must perceive the qualities manifest in the dream and then understand how these qualities correspond to the qualities of something else that hidden from the perception of the dreamer." (The Vision of Islam, p. 222) It is hard to imagine how such understanding of qualities could be achieved by those who are not personally acquainted with the dreamer. We can achieve a certain level of relationship in our exchanges with members of this list, but there is no substitute for face-to-face communication and the attunement that comes from worship in actual community. 800 years ago, Najmuddin Kubra advised that Sufis seek "the constant direction of a shaikh who explains the meaning of one's dreams and visions." (Schimmel, Mystical Dimensions of Islam, p. 255) Sheikh Muzaffer Ozak, head of the Halveti-Jerrahi order until his death in 1985, was very emphatic about the exclusive role of the sheikh in dream interperetation. "The sheikh interprets dreams through inspiration. The sheikh must know the station and the spiritual rank of the dreamer to interpret dreams correctly. Then, God sends the answer to the sheikh's heart. Some sheikhs can also give a good interpretation to a bad dream, which will then come out well... A dream should be told only to the dream interpreter. This secrecy is very, very important. The meaning of the dream is revealed to the interpreter as the dream is told... You should never tell your dreams to someone who is in the habit of speaking ill of others. Tell your dreams only to those with clean mouths." (Love is the Wine, p. 43) How do we know who meets such standards? It is impossible to exercise that kind of discernment in the context of a group of people most of whom we have probably never met face to face. Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee, a contemporary teacher in the Naqshbandiyya-Mujadiddiyya tradition one of whose primary emphases is dream interpretation, writes, "As dreams are shared and valued, so their substance becomes more real, the inner world more tangible. Some dreams must always remain private, for at times they speak secrets of the soul that are not for the ears of others. But most often the sharing of a dream with sympathetic friends helps to... reinforce a connection to the inner world." (Call and the Echo, p. 54) With _sympathetic friends_. Many members of the list are sympathetic to each other's perspectives. Some may not be. And others do not post, so there is no way of knowing one way or the other. Whatever the case, by posting a dream to a list, it is being shared with _everyone_. Refik Algan, a contemporary Sufi teacher living in Istanbul, writes: "In Sufism, a mature teacher provides a stimulus that may come in many forms, conscious and unconscious, intellectual, emotional, psychic, and spiritual. From these stimuli something is expected to grow in the seeker, pass through certain stages, and bear its fruits. Great misunderstandings and loss of one's way are almost inevitable if one tries to interpret the dream alone or from a book, or with someone who is not licensed within the teaching." (The Dream of the Sleeper . Mevlevi shaikh Kabir Helminski (my teacher) expands on the subject: "The initiatic lines of Sufism carry the energy of an enlightened state of mind from their source in Muhammad. This state of mind is the natural (not supernatural) human state in which our intelligence (which is the intelligence lent us by Allah) is not veiled from us by desires, obsessions, or other forms of negative conditioning. One who has previously experienced this "opening" can guide others toward this state and verify their attainment of it. What Refik means by a "licensed" teacher is not merely one who has the title of teacher or shaikh (because this title can also be given to one who merely serves a managerial capacity), but an enlightened authority within this chain of transmission." (introduction to above article) If a person has accepted the guidance of a spiritual teacher, that person's dreams are dreamed in the context of that relationship, and should be interpreted in that context. This is not to disregard the situation of those who have infrequent communication with their teacher. Perhaps we can write letters (snailmail!). We can seek the advice of those within our spiritual community. We can and should always pray for guidance. With respect to Ashiq's question about the desirability of separating the list into its various apparent factions, I say no! Eventually, occasionally, we will clash. Of course -- we are talking about religion. If we want to avoid conflict, avoid any conversations about religion (or politics). This list provides a remarkable opportunity for us to become acquainted with many different perspectives and modes of expression -- A.N. Durkee's passionate and uncompromising commitment to Islam, Kaffea Lalla's gentleness, Nur's erudition, Michael's always refreshing good humor, Maharaj's commitment to universality. Would this work in an actual (rather than virtual) Sufi circle? Probably not. But, inshallah, we can deal with it on line. With love, Rabia ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: Re: The Oil Lamp Ayesha wrote: > > Salam brothers and sisters in Allah, > > Can someone please help me? I know there is a wonderful passage > in the Koran about lighting a lamp in a niche, but I cannot seem > to find it - can someone tell me which chapter it is in please? > Thank you, > > Health, happiness and wisdom to all > Ayesha > ********** > Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is, as it were, that of a niche containing a Lamp; the lamp is enclosed in glass, the glass shining like a radiant star; a lamp lit from a blessed tree - -- an olive tree that is neither of the east nor of the west -- the oil whereof is so bright that it would well-night give light of itself even though fire had not touched it: light upon light! Allah guides unto His light him that wills to be guided; and to this end Allah propounds parables unto men, since Allah alone has full knowledge of all things. An-Nur (24:35) With love, Rabia ------------------------------ From: Ayesha Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:35:45 -0600 Subject: The Lunar Eclipse Salam brothers and sisters I want to thank you, Cathie, for posting the report on the lunar eclipse. I have no knowledge of astrology, only a deep sense that it somehow "is", but I saw the eclipse and had a strong feeling it was very important. Spiritually my life has rarely felt so receptive as it does now. Thank for helping me understand my dreams! Peace, wellness and happiness to all Ayesha. ------------------------------ From: Ayesha Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:37:51 -0600 Subject: Re: The Oil Lamp Rabia, Thank you so much! with love Ayesha ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:54:07 -0700 Subject: Re: failure? / delivering babies Lilyan Kay wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > It is the midwife who insistently nudges you toward Truth, regardless of > how loud you whine or curse. The one who makes you feel good is the > anesthesiologist. > > Lily Right on Sister Lily, If we think that we walk a path in order to 'feel good' then we will join some cult that does just that. Real effort seldom 'feels good'. If we do have some 'good feelings' along the way, then it is a great blessing from Allah (swt) but not an indication that we are making progress. A woman delivering a baby may find some relief between pushes. The anesthesiologist can be useful too. He can prevent too much effort which would damage the mother, or prevent effort in the wrong direction (i.e. at the wrong time). But the anesthesiologist but be aware that the greater picture is to deliver the baby. If he does not see this, he will kill the mother with kindness. Sometimes so-called-friends are like this. People who have problems *always* listen to this kind of friend. The friend makes them 'feel good'. When somebody comes along with some *real* help, *real* instruction, something that could lift them out of their morass once and for all, they ignore it. These people are constantly prescribing their own cure (albiet indirectly by choosing who to listen to) and wondering why they are not making progress. To make matters worse, they can even have this trap described to them and they never see that it applies to themselves. There is a person on this list, for example, who has asked the same question many time. Many good answers have come, many right answers. Yet he continues to ask the question. It becomes clear that he enjoys asking it. This is ok, provided that this person enjoys the dance and does not actually believe that he seeks answers. Heck, I've been know to do a little dancing myself! :-) Cheers, - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:01:35 -0400 Subject: Dr. Ibrahim Pourhadi & Rumi's 'Kolliyat-e Shams' [Re: sufi words naturally hello Simon, Maharaj James and all, Would you have the exact ref. (as in title of text, pp., etc.) of the Pourhadi translation? Also, is the ghazal/verse in question cited there as coming from the work Kolliyat-e Shams, or from elsewhere? Does Schimmel herself know of his work? Maybe they could clarify some of this in they collaborated (=worked together). in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-09-27 21:17:25 EDT, you write: << The translation which I have submitted is by Dr. Ibrahim Pourhadi of the Library of Congress, who will defend his translation if anybody wants to seriously contest it. His native tounge is Farsi and he has his doctorate from Princeton in Sanskrit, while being fluent in seven other languages. He has made a life-long study of Rumi. Any takers? > >This poem, which shows the mystic beyond time and space, beyond the >created borders between races and religions, has often been repeated in >the West; however it is not found in the critical edition of the >'Kolliyat-e Shams', and resembles in its whole tenor rather the >effusions of slightly later poets in the Persian and Turkish speaking >areas, who would repeat similar ideas time and again. >(end of quote) > >That's all for now. > >Salaams to one and all > >Simon Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net >> ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:01:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Sorry, another Post hello all, reply below this quoted excerpt. In a message dated 96-09-27 21:47:42 EDT, Kaffea/Jacquie Weller writes: <<<>>>>> << Of course this is not true of most but I do feel like a seccond rate sufi, who is never going to be authentic in some eyes. It doesn't matter that my life has been changing because of this experience, that I am no longer the same as i was before. That I am recovered from alcoholism, my faith restored in God, my love increasing, and my mental illness healed. This is not good enough. Where are the Sheikhs are Shakyhs that recognize the pressure that is being put on us and can understand that there is good coming out of these western branches of sufi and that without this none of us would have even a nodding acquaintance with who you are or even care. I have to admit that I am discouraged, and feel very lonly here. Kaffea lalla >> hello Kaffea, You write so I respond, one nonshaykh human to another, if you will. You are probably correct that in some people's eyes you will never be a true Sufi, no matter what you do. If you keep going from person to person to get confirmation that all is good and all is fine and that you should carry on on the path you are following now, you will probably end up spinning, and I don't mean dervish-fashion. If Allah wants you to have a guide/teacher/shaykh, surely HU will take care of it. Meanwhile, there is a source of orientation for you in your own knowledge of your life and its path, which is richer and more intense than any other person has access to, even if you have a monozygotic twin. I mean if you sit with this idea a bit, in a chair or on the floor, or pacing about even, and look to see whether you feel the movement/shifts in your life are in a good, enriching, liberating, grounding, heart-opening direction, you may see in which ways what has happened so far to you is not the full story, so in that way it is not *yet* "good enough" -- from the vantage point of your own gentle wisdom. There's no reason to lose track of your own evolution here, my dear. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:01:47 -0400 Subject: doing Good [Re: What is a natural Sufi? In a message dated 96-09-28 11:34:21 EDT, you write: << Whosoever believes and does Good , be it Jew , Christian or Sabean , he need not fear , he need not grieve.." (Extract of meaning of a Quranic Verse) >> thank you. what verse is this from? Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:01:44 -0400 Subject: Re: A dream, and Time to Separate? Dear sister Rabia and friends, You have said it so well. Can you imagine a more boring environment for a discussion group than a place where everyone agrees? We would all have happy little smiles and cobwebs in our brains! Thanks again to our host, who lets us work these things out. At 01:04 PM 9/29/96 -0400, you wrote: >Salaam aleikum! >With respect to Ashiq's question about the desirability of separating >the list into its various apparent factions, I say no! Eventually, >occasionally, we will clash. Of course -- we are talking about religion. >If we want to avoid conflict, avoid any conversations about religion (or >politics). This list provides a remarkable opportunity for us to become >acquainted with many different perspectives and modes of expression -- >A.N. Durkee's passionate and uncompromising commitment to Islam, Kaffea >Lalla's gentleness, Nur's erudition, Michael's always refreshing good >humor, Maharaj's commitment to universality. Would this work in an >actual (rather than virtual) Sufi circle? Probably not. But, inshallah, >we can deal with it on line. > >With love, >Rabia > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:08:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Dr. Ibrahim Pourhadi & Rumi's 'Kolliyat-e Shams' [Re: sufi words naturally I shall ask him on my return from a trip in about two weeks time. At 02:01 PM 9/29/96 -0400, you wrote: >hello Simon, Maharaj James and all, >Would you have the exact ref. (as in title of text, pp., etc.) of the >Pourhadi translation? Also, is the ghazal/verse in question cited there as >coming from the work Kolliyat-e Shams, or from elsewhere? Does Schimmel >herself know of his work? >Maybe they could clarify some of this in they collaborated (=worked >together). >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > >In a message dated 96-09-27 21:17:25 EDT, you write: > ><< > The translation which I have submitted is by Dr. Ibrahim Pourhadi of the > Library of Congress, who will defend his translation if anybody wants to > seriously contest it. His native tounge is Farsi and he has his doctorate > from Princeton in Sanskrit, while being fluent in seven other languages. He > has made a life-long study of Rumi. Any takers? > > > > >This poem, which shows the mystic beyond time and space, beyond the > >created borders between races and religions, has often been repeated in > >the West; however it is not found in the critical edition of the > >'Kolliyat-e Shams', and resembles in its whole tenor rather the > >effusions of slightly later poets in the Persian and Turkish speaking > >areas, who would repeat similar ideas time and again. > >(end of quote) > > > >That's all for now. > > > >Salaams to one and all > > > >Simon > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > >> > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: Re: failure? Dear Lily, Thanks for the wisdom and a real belly laugh. At 09:33 PM 9/28/96 -0700, you wrote: > >asalaam-u-aleikum > >It is the midwife who insistently nudges you toward Truth, regardless of >how loud you whine or curse. The one who makes you feel good is the >anesthesiologist. > >Lily > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:22:10 -0700 Subject: No tImE I have NO TIME for RUMI!!! I have THINGS to DO! I have THINGS! I have ... I? ((poof)) oh!, hi rumi ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:30:11 +0100 Subject: Re: Sorry, another Post >hello all, >reply below this quoted excerpt. > >In a message dated 96-09-27 21:47:42 EDT, Kaffea/Jacquie Weller writes: ><<<>>>>> ><< Of course this is not true of > most but I do feel like a seccond rate sufi, who is never going to be > authentic in some eyes. > It doesn't matter that my life has been changing because of this experience, > that I am no longer the same as i was before. That I am recovered from > alcoholism, my faith restored in God, my love increasing, and my mental > illness healed. This is not good enough. > Where are the Sheikhs are Shakyhs that recognize the pressure that is being > put on us and can understand that there is good coming out of these western > branches of sufi and that without this none of us would have even a nodding > acquaintance with who you are or even care. > I have to admit that I am discouraged, and feel very lonly here. Kaffea >lalla > > > >> >hello Kaffea, > >You write so I respond, one nonshaykh human to another, if you will. > >You are probably correct that in some people's eyes you will never be a true >Sufi, no matter what you do. > >If you keep going from person to person to get confirmation that all is good >and all is fine and that you should carry on on the path you are following >now, you will probably end up spinning, and I don't mean dervish-fashion. > >If Allah wants you to have a guide/teacher/shaykh, surely HU will take care >of it. > >Meanwhile, there is a source of orientation for you in your own knowledge of >your life and its path, which is richer and more intense than any other >person has access to, even if you have a monozygotic twin. > >I mean if you sit with this idea a bit, in a chair or on the floor, or pacing >about even, and look to see whether you feel the movement/shifts in your life >are in a good, enriching, liberating, grounding, heart-opening direction, you >may see in which ways what has happened so far to you is not the full story, >so in that way it is not *yet* "good enough" -- from the vantage point of >your own gentle wisdom. There's no reason to lose track of your own evolution >here, my dear. > >in peace, >Jinavamsa > - ----------- Dear Jinavamsa. I wrote this post about "Sorry, another Post" in a vulnerable moment. Much has cleared up for me sense. To those who have the impression I am without a guide, I do...My initiator has been vaulable help to me. I do not need confirmation of what is happening in myself and what path I am on. I got caught up in the heat as some call it that was being generated. I wrote a poem today about two minds which I forgot to put a title to that explains things for me today. I felt pressure but it is in truth pressure I was putting on myself. I was in error to seek a Sheikh to justify myself as someone pointed out previously to me. I have decided it does not matter what I am named or not, only that God is love, I fellowship with this love...and I send everyone here my friendship and regards. I love this tariqas of all diverse and rich backgrounds. I have learned something special from each of you. If I percieve a threat or hostility, it is because my vision was limited. I am not here to pick and choose but to offer you myself, with all it's inconsistencies and shortcommings. I unite with you all in the spirit of faith and mutual respect. Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #170 *****************************