From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Oct 7 22:10:42 1996 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #162 tariqas-digest Friday, 27 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 162 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:31:02 -0700 Subject: Re: 3 Sufi Purposes Jacquie Weller wrote: > > Something in my notes from my little sufi group in Idaho. > > Three Sufi Purposes > 1. To realize and spread the knowledge of Unity, the Religion of Love and > Wisdom, so that bias of faiths and beliefs may of itself fall away, the > human heart may overflow with Love, and all hatred caused by distinctions > and differences may be rooted out. > > 2. To discover the Light and Power latent in the Human Being, the secret of > all Religion, the power of Mysticism, and the essence of Philosophy, without > interfering with customs or beliefs. > > 3. To help bring the world's two opposite poles, East and West, closer > together by the interchange of thoughts and ideals, that the Universal > Family may form of itself, and Human Beings may meet one another beyond > narrow national and racial boundaries. > > Kaffea lalla Greetings Kaffea, I was thinking about what you wrote above, and something was not sitting right with me. These all seem like good ideals but It seems to me that the focus is a little to narrow for what a sufi's work might be. Maybe I am just reading things into it, but feels like there is a little bit too much 'I' involved in this. i.e. "I" am *deciding* what needs to be done and, "I" am *doing* what needs to be done. So here is an alternative list ONE Sufi Purpose 1. To have no purpose except His. So, you might find that you are a Chechen soldier, or Ibrahim killing his son, or a street sweeper, or whatever, doing anything. Maybe you are a prostitute, or a pope, but if there is no "I", only Allah swt then it must be right. If Allah wants the East and West brought closer together, then he will do it. Allah always knows best, if only I could totally realize this. - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:09:19 +0100 Subject: Re: 3 Sufi Purposes >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> Something in my notes from my little sufi group in Idaho. >> >> Three Sufi Purposes >> 1. To realize and spread the knowledge of Unity, the Religion of Love and >> Wisdom, so that bias of faiths and beliefs may of itself fall away, the >> human heart may overflow with Love, and all hatred caused by distinctions >> and differences may be rooted out. >> >> 2. To discover the Light and Power latent in the Human Being, the secret of >> all Religion, the power of Mysticism, and the essence of Philosophy, without >> interfering with customs or beliefs. >> >> 3. To help bring the world's two opposite poles, East and West, closer >> together by the interchange of thoughts and ideals, that the Universal >> Family may form of itself, and Human Beings may meet one another beyond >> narrow national and racial boundaries. >> >> Kaffea lalla > >Greetings Kaffea, >I was thinking about what you wrote above, and something was not sitting >right >with me. These all seem like good ideals but It seems to me that the >focus is >a little to narrow for what a sufi's work might be. Maybe I am just >reading >things into it, but feels like there is a little bit too much 'I' >involved >in this. i.e. "I" am *deciding* what needs to be done and, "I" am >*doing* what >needs to be done. So here is an alternative list > >ONE Sufi Purpose > 1. To have no purpose except His. > So, you might find that you are a Chechen soldier, or Ibrahim >killing > his son, or a street sweeper, or whatever, doing anything. Maybe >you > are a prostitute, or a pope, but if there is no "I", only Allah >swt > then it must be right. > >If Allah wants the East and West brought closer together, then he will >do it. Allah always knows best, if only I could totally realize this. >-- >Michael J. Moore >----------- Could it possibly be that in Allah there is no east and west? That this is man that separated us whereas not Allah. KL ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:49:50 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Jacquie Salaams---- I suggest you check you header and post -- for you attributing something to me that I did not say. I believe you should be addressing this to Zainuddin Ismail. But from a brief reading of your post I suggest you find out more about mystic Christianity, Coptic Christianity and in particular Eastern Christianity, the conflicts might be less -- for Christianity might be your path. Simon Jacquie Weller wrote: > > Simon said on Friday: > A Sufi or a would-be-Sufi must realise that there is nothing worthy of > worship but God.And to enable him to have a complete , fool proof , correct > concept of God it is available only through Islam which is the final edition > of the myriads of true religion which God revealed to humankind.All the > spade work has been done by the Prophets of God .Why travel alone when Islam > is there , when the Divine Message is unadulterated , when not a dot of the > Quran has been changed over the last 1400 years and more.If you still cannot > accept this , then at least cling to the conviction that there is nothing > worthy to be worshipped , to be loved and obeyed but God Almighty.Insha'Llah > your search for the Truth will bring you to the Truth. > > A: Are you suggesting that only Islam is foolproof, correct, concept of God? > My problem is I believe in concepts in christianity that Islam does not > believe. But I believe also in concepts of Islam that christians would > probably have some problems with. But in truth I am as Islam as I am > christian, and One in many traditions. > > B: The language is difficult for me to pronounce although I try to learn the > beautiful names of God as the attributes of Allah. > > C: I have been open to learn about the Muslim faith through my friend who > is Muslim. The five pillars of faith. About Ramadam, About prayers, I think > you call it Salat? > > D: I also believe in concepts that have come from American Indian traditions > And other faiths as well. > > E: While studying Joseph Campbell, I have learned many archtypes exist in many > religions and many symbols have similar themes and roots. > > F: I consider myself as one who appreciates the similarities and > differences and form no judgement (or try not to) of beliefs that do not > match my own beliefs. > > G: The sufi's have said to know God, one must know oneself, and to know God is > to know oneself. This is a continual journey. > > There are 10 sufi thoughts that I hold to. It states > 1. There is One God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none else exists. > 2. There is One Master, the guiding Spirit of all souls, who constantly > leads all followers to the light. > 3. There is One Holy Book, the Sacred Manuscript of Nature, the only > Scripture which can enlighten the reader. > 4. There is One Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction > toward the Ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul. > 5. There is One Law, the Law of Reciprocity, which can be observed by a > selfless conscience together with a sense of awakened justice. > 6. There is One Family, the Human Family, which unites the Children of Earth > indiscriminately in the Parenthood of God. > 7. There is One Moral, the Love which springs forth from a willing heart and > blooms in deeds of beneficence. > 8. There is One Object of Praise, the Beauty which uplifts the heart of its > worshipper through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. > 9. There is One Truth, the true Knowledge of our Being, within and without, > which is the essence of all Wisdom. > 10. There is One Path, the pilgrimage from the limited self to the > Unlimited, which raises the mortal to Immortality, in which resides all > Perfection. > (These thoughts briefly are those represented by the Ruhaniat Order). > Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Erik S Ohlander Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: sufi words naturally I would also like to add that it is important, and this goes for just about any expression literary or otherwise, that we pay attention to CONTEXT. In Rumi's day there was no such thing as pluralism as we concieve of it today. We simply cannot, unless we have a deep knowledge of the setting, language, intellectual mileau, cultural and religious context, as well as the lineage of the author, posit a meaning to a text beyond our own personal interpretation(s) of what we think it means (usually in terms of our own educational, spiritual, and cultural background). Also, unless you are able to read medieval Persian you are reading an INTERPRETATION of Rumi's works; anyone who has ever studied a second language knows that one has to make choices about how to render the meaning of a text in one language into another; this is very basic. One is reminded of the famous story of the elephants and the blind men in Rumi's Mathnavi - these men lacked context, thus each percieved a different truth. On a similar note a friend of mine showed me the jacket of a pop CD last week, and guess what...there was a quote from Rumi on the back! The theme of the CD...sex. With love- Erik. On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Simon Bryquer wrote: > Mr.McCaig--- > > You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you > don't really understand what Rumi means here. This is the poem that is > always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that > Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and > their illusion. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even > aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in > case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it > does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a > Muslim everyday of his life. One more word you are not Rumi. > > Salaams to one and all ---- > > Simon > ====================================================================== > > James McCaig wrote: > > > > At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh > > al-akbar, > > >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew > > just > > >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. > > > > > Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the > > written > > ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that > > is > > nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? > > > > Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that > > Rumi > > was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious > > affiliation: > > > > What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. > > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the > > sea; > > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of > > entity. > > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; > > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. > > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > > > > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. > > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved > > > > Jallalludin Rumi > > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center > > Bookstore > > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:32:59 +0100 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally >Jacquie Salaams---- > >I suggest you check you header and post -- for you attributing something >to me that I did not say. I believe you should be addressing this to >Zainuddin Ismail. > >But from a brief reading of your post I suggest you find out more about >mystic Christianity, Coptic Christianity and in particular Eastern >Christianity, the conflicts might be less -- for Christianity might be >your path. > >Simon > >Yes Simon, I am sorry that I got the wrong header for the post. Please people of tariqa reccognize that the post addressed to simon is in error and should not be...so forget the name and just respond to as if addressed to the person who wrote this post and my reply ...Kaffea Lalla > >Ps. thankyou for telling me about Coptic Christianity and Eastern Christianity, which I know nothing about...KL > > > > >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> Simon said on Friday: >> A Sufi or a would-be-Sufi must realise that there is nothing worthy of >> worship but God.And to enable him to have a complete , fool proof , correct >> concept of God it is available only through Islam which is the final edition >> of the myriads of true religion which God revealed to humankind.All the >> spade work has been done by the Prophets of God .Why travel alone when Islam >> is there , when the Divine Message is unadulterated , when not a dot of the >> Quran has been changed over the last 1400 years and more.If you still cannot >> accept this , then at least cling to the conviction that there is nothing >> worthy to be worshipped , to be loved and obeyed but God Almighty.Insha'Llah >> your search for the Truth will bring you to the Truth. >> >> A: Are you suggesting that only Islam is foolproof, correct, concept of God? >> My problem is I believe in concepts in christianity that Islam does not >> believe. But I believe also in concepts of Islam that christians would >> probably have some problems with. But in truth I am as Islam as I am >> christian, and One in many traditions. >> >> B: The language is difficult for me to pronounce although I try to learn the >> beautiful names of God as the attributes of Allah. >> >> C: I have been open to learn about the Muslim faith through my friend who >> is Muslim. The five pillars of faith. About Ramadam, About prayers, I think >> you call it Salat? >> >> D: I also believe in concepts that have come from American Indian traditions >> And other faiths as well. >> >> E: While studying Joseph Campbell, I have learned many archtypes exist in many >> religions and many symbols have similar themes and roots. >> >> F: I consider myself as one who appreciates the similarities and >> differences and form no judgement (or try not to) of beliefs that do not >> match my own beliefs. >> >> G: The sufi's have said to know God, one must know oneself, and to know God is >> to know oneself. This is a continual journey. >> >> There are 10 sufi thoughts that I hold to. It states >> 1. There is One God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none else exists. >> 2. There is One Master, the guiding Spirit of all souls, who constantly >> leads all followers to the light. >> 3. There is One Holy Book, the Sacred Manuscript of Nature, the only >> Scripture which can enlighten the reader. >> 4. There is One Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction >> toward the Ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul. >> 5. There is One Law, the Law of Reciprocity, which can be observed by a >> selfless conscience together with a sense of awakened justice. >> 6. There is One Family, the Human Family, which unites the Children of Earth >> indiscriminately in the Parenthood of God. >> 7. There is One Moral, the Love which springs forth from a willing heart and >> blooms in deeds of beneficence. >> 8. There is One Object of Praise, the Beauty which uplifts the heart of its >> worshipper through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. >> 9. There is One Truth, the true Knowledge of our Being, within and without, >> which is the essence of all Wisdom. >> 10. There is One Path, the pilgrimage from the limited self to the >> Unlimited, which raises the mortal to Immortality, in which resides all >> Perfection. >> (These thoughts briefly are those represented by the Ruhaniat Order). >> Kaffea lalla > > ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:43:51 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally At 10:50 AM 9/27/96 -0700, Simon wrote: >Mr.McCaig--- > >You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you >don't really understand what Rumi means here. Seems pretty clear to me. Is there a hidden meaning that you would care to elucidate, Oh learned one? > This is the poem that is >always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that >Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and >their illusion. Strange thing to say to someone who has just said "there is no Sufism without Islam", as I did in my earlier post, which predictably irritates brother Simon along with several other shrill voices in this group. Apparently he disagrees with his co-irritant from Green Mountain who says the first Muslim and Sufi was Adam, If I understand his rambling diatribe. If memory serves, he also said in his post that all the Prophets were Muslim and Sufis, neatly contradicting himself. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even >aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in >case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it >does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a >Muslim everyday of his life. Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by intolerant would-be Muslims like you. >One more word you are not Rumi. I knew that. > >Salaams to one and all ---- > >Simon >====================================================================== > >James McCaig wrote: >> Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that >> Rumi >> was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious >> affiliation: >> >> What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself >> I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. >> I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the >> sea; >> I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. >> I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; >> I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of >> entity. >> I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; >> I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. >> I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; >> >> I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. >> My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; >> 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved >> >> Jallalludin Rumi Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:43:55 -0400 Subject: Re: I'm naturally curious, naturally... At 08:20 AM 9/27/96 -0800, you wrote: >It's interesting for me to see this renewed discussion (once again) about >"Islamic Sufism" vs. "non-Islamic Sufism." It's interesting to me because >this is the first time that I'm observing the discussion from my new (for >me) "Islamic point of view," having finally taken Shahada from Shaykh >Hisham and accepted Islam about a year ago. Dear Sisters and Brothers, Congratulations are in order for this brother. First, if he is the same Gary, he writes a most interesting and informative column on PC matters and is a weekly source of delight for me. Second, he has found the one true path, an even bigger accomplishment and after a year or so he now feels ready to criticize those who don't know as much as he does on religious matters, especially the parroting by rote of prayers. Knowing of his bent for careful research and his self- professed natural curiosity, one presumes that he would never reject a religion without studying it carefully and I am moved to ask: 1. What is it about the Baghavad Gita that you found so far from the truth? 2. After your careful study of Buddhism and its prayers and esoteric practices, why did you decide to reject it? 3. Which teachings of Christ do you reject? Does one Christian sect strike you as closer to the truth than another? Would you, as brother Simon does, assign a religion to another on the basis of criticism of your writings? 4. Why do the teachings and practices of Zoroaster leave you feeling unfulfilled? 5. Does your careful study of the Jewish tradition leave you feeling that it is hollow at its core? 6. Thank you for acknowledging, at least, the existence of non-Islamic Sufis. That no doubt eases the burden for many, but how can you be so sure if one is not Islamic. Is it your opinion that to be Islamic one musty reject and put down anyone who does not believe the only way to salvation is through Islam? 7. How does one become Islamic? Is it through the point of view you adopt or can it only be done through approval by a registered leader? For my part, i see myself as Islamic since I accept that there is only one God and that Mohammed (PBUH) was his prophet. If one must be touched or blessed by a leader, how can you be sure you got the right one? Did your research lead you to reject the teachings of some Islamic factions while finally settling on the one you chose? Could you take a minute to explain the process of culling through all the various branches of Islam before you decided on the one true way? 7. Looking at your picture you seem to be quite young, about or under 30 I would guess, unless you owe a great debt to the photographer for your column. How have you found the time to lead an active life in the world of commerce while conducting all the research that brings you to the certainty that you now profess? Just curious and naturally a little nonplussed because I could never find the time to be so sure. As Oscar Wilde has said, "I'm not young enough to know everything". Warm regards and thanks again for a great weekly column. > >Others have written tons of words here on either side, and it does look >like a bit of an impasse. But I'm curious as to whether or not those >"non-Islamic Sufi's" who seem to so clearly believe that there can be >Sufism without Islam have ever *really* looked into Islam, i.e., really >read about it, looked for a tariqat, looked for an Islamic Shaykh, spent >time with Muslims, etc. > >I guess I was lucky. It only took me a couple of years of being of the >non-Islamic variety, before I was led onto the path. But I've known some >others who've been non-Islamic for a verrrrry long time. I asked one of >them, a very close friend, if he had learned the Fatihah yet. And he said >"no, but I can sort of recite it along with others if they are doing it." >And I said, "my friend, you've been on the fringes of Sufism for twenty >years, and you consider yourself to be a Sufi. You know the Star Spangled >Banner, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the names of hundreds of TV and Movie >stars. Why haven't you made the effort to learn the Fatihah?" Do you know, dear brother, the Sufi story of Moses and the Shepherd who was praying to God in his own way, inviting God to share his meager wealth? Are you willing to incur God's wrath for your putdown of your friend? >He had no >answer, and to this day hasn't made the investment to learn the Fatihah. >I've seen stuck automobiles that had less inertia than my friend. > >So I ask, out of curiosity, and out of hope, if some of our "non-Islamic" >Sufi friends can answer these two basic questions: > >1) How much investigation of Islam have you actually attempted? > >2) If there *has* been some investigation on your parts, then could you >share with us the reasons why you have chosen to not accept Islam? > >I think if some of you good souls out there could respond directly to these >two questions, then maybe we could get to where the rubber hits the road on >this issue. Like I said, I'm hopeful, in spite of what seems to be a >zillion-year impasse. It is a zillion year impasse, dear Gary, even though Islam has only been around since after the Prophet (PBUH) died. The impasse is between mystics who marvel at the mystery and imensity of God's creation and see God in every blade of grass and those who profess to know the rules and regulations and reject all others. > >With respect to all, > >Abdul Matin Berlind > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:46:31 -0700 Subject: Re: 3 Sufi Purposes Jacquie Weller wrote: > > > >If Allah wants the East and West brought closer together, then he will > >do it. Allah always knows best, if only I could totally realize this. > >-- > >Michael J. Moore > >----------- > Could it possibly be that in Allah there is no east and west? That this is > man that separated us whereas not Allah. KL Well, I think that the Qur'an says that *Allah* has created these divisions, (maybe not specifically the East vs West one) and that If he wanted to that he could make it one. I can't remember the sura, but I am sure that several people here have it in mind. Logic would dictate that if Allah knows everything that is going to happen then there is no 'free will'. It is already written; it's a done deal. Yet the Qur'an teaches both free will and determinism. These would seem to be mutually exclusive and hence, both cannot be true. Yet there are many worlds so what is true in a lower world may not be true in a higher one. So, here is how I reconcile this apparent contradiction. There are multiple levels/states/types of consciousness. These are the 'worlds'. In lower states, man is 'asleep'. He has no knowlege of his higher-self (or Allah swt if you prefer). His life is stimulus/response. His thoughts/emotions/actions/instincts are all stimulus/response. He has no free will. The vast majority of people on earth fall into this category and I include myself here. Then there is the 'realized' man. He is in a different world. He has surrendered. So, he lives in a different world and to him, a different set of laws apply. He does the will of Allah which is the *only* will. So the man with his eyes closed does Allah's will and he knows it not, while the man with his eyes open does Allah's will freely and knows what he does. This is what I believe, but beliefs are for sleeping people, inshallah someday my belief will be replaced by knowledge. Cheers, - -- Michael ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:17:03 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Salams to all.There is some confusion here.I hope that someone would pick up this thread and explain as I am off for work : To say that all Prophets were Muslims and Sufis is not contradictory .Names of the system is not important.All Prophets were chosen God and the religion they followed whatever history called the religion is :"Submission to the Will of God " Later these religions underwent changes and lost their purity.With the Quran of historical Islam there is the Divine Assurance that there will be no changes and so it has been. At 18:43 9/27/96 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:50 AM 9/27/96 -0700, Simon wrote: >>Mr.McCaig--- >> >>You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you >>don't really understand what Rumi means here. > >Seems pretty clear to me. Is there a hidden meaning that you would care to >elucidate, Oh learned one? > >> This is the poem that is >>always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that >>Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and >>their illusion. > >Strange thing to say to someone who has just said "there is no Sufism >without Islam", as I did in my earlier post, which predictably irritates >brother Simon along with several other shrill voices in this group. > >Apparently he disagrees with his co-irritant from Green Mountain who says >the first Muslim and Sufi was Adam, If I understand his rambling diatribe. >If memory serves, he also said in his post that all the Prophets were Muslim >and Sufis, neatly contradicting himself. > > But it is your life and if you insist and are not even >>aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in >>case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it >>does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a >>Muslim everyday of his life. > >Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by >intolerant would-be Muslims like you. > >>One more word you are not Rumi. > >I knew that. >> >>Salaams to one and all ---- >> >>Simon >>====================================================================== >> >>James McCaig wrote: >>> Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that >>> Rumi >>> was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious >>> affiliation: >>> >>> What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself >>> I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. >>> I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the >>> sea; >>> I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. >>> I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; >>> I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of >>> entity. >>> I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; >>> I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. >>> I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; >>> >>> I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. >>> My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; >>> 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved >>> >>> Jallalludin Rumi > > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:30:04 -0700 Subject: Re: I'm naturally curious, naturally... James McCaig wrote: > > At 08:20 AM 9/27/96 -0800, you wrote: > >It's interesting for me to see this renewed discussion (once again) about > >"Islamic Sufism" vs. "non-Islamic Sufism." It's interesting to me because > >this is the first time that I'm observing the discussion from my new (for > >me) "Islamic point of view," having finally taken Shahada from Shaykh > >Hisham and accepted Islam about a year ago. > > Dear Sisters and Brothers, > > Congratulations are in order for this brother. First, if he is the same > Gary, he writes a most interesting and informative column on PC matters and > is a weekly source of delight for me. Second, he has found the one true > path, an even bigger accomplishment and after a year or so he now feels > ready to criticize those who don't know as much as he does on religious > matters, especially the parroting by rote of prayers. > > Knowing of his bent for careful research and his self- professed natural > curiosity, one presumes that he would never reject a religion without > studying it carefully and I am moved to ask: > Ouch! what biting sarcasm. Hmmm. Perhaps this is just some more 'tough love' comming back from the other side of the fence? ;-) I hope it does some good. - -- br. Michael ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #162 *****************************