From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Oct 7 22:10:30 1996 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:02:59 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #161 tariqas-digest Friday, 27 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 161 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Khalil S. Ohlander" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:01:52 Subject: RE: sufi words naturally as salamu 'alaykum- I read these words many times over; how percise, how succient, how empowering! May Allah (SWT) reward you for your effort! Thank you so much for being able to explain this reality in such a clear way; I only hope others will listen carefully to your words and may, insha'allah, understand what you are trying to share. baraktullah ya akhi! Erik. *..but if you say sufi. well then that is something else again. it has a meaning. it is a lineage, it is a way. it is known. other men and women walked that way. they left accounts. yes yes yes of course there were always a few in every century who were something else who did this and that and here i mean something like the bektashis or the beshar in india. Allahu 'alim. but even what they did they did in a context, in a cosomolgical and metaphysical universe. again i am not, i repeat not, talking about christian mystics, jewish mystics, zoroastrian mystics, or even antlantean or celtic or whatever else kind of mystics you want to talk about. alhamdulillah for all mystics everywhere in every time. i am talking, or writing in this case, about sufis who used that particular word and no other word to describe themselves and there is certainly something about that particular word and everything else that comes along with that word that is intimately connected, entwined, shot to the marrow with the bow and arrow of 'islam and thats the truth and you can take it or leave it but, alhamdulillah, there it is and it my duty to remind you of that. every now and then. A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: Hafizullah@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:19:27 -0400 Subject: Re: natural sufi? In a message dated 96-09-26 09:56:53 EDT, A. N. Durkee writes: << no matter how you phrase it, and this phrase is just another attempt to somehow sneak in the door, there still remains only one way to get in the door and that is islam. frankly speaking why don't you just give up. >> I find your lack of compassion appalling, Sir. It really, really doesn't matter what anybody else does; your judgements will not change them and only creates pain and constriction in your own heart --- and takes you away from the Presence in an instant. "We each come to God by secret ways", and the book of our lives is not yet closed. Have faith, and have patience with those whose line of progress is different from yours. ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:44:35 GMT Subject: Re: Sufi Soup >I don't know if I am natural or unnatural sufi. I don't know if sufi's get >up in the morning, walk down the street, eat beans for dinner, have >breakfast under the stars, don't read newspapers, existed before the cresent >moon or after the full moon. In the Ruhaniats I am called a sufi and have >gone through initiation. >I know some words in other languages. I know some Dhikrs. I have a >friend/guide. >I believe there is no reality but God and this concept when meditated on >changes everything I thought I knew and still do not really know. If I am >not a sufi then I am a lover of the Beloved inside looking out at all the >other Beloveds. >Whatever I am, I see no divisions by God only limitations by dogma. >I think it does not matter what i think as brain stuff is dilluted in the pure >stream of Allah in all around all through all in all names and non-names. >I think a tree tells me more about this than any language. Kaffea lalla Amen, sr. John. ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:57:16 GMT Subject: Re: Sufi Soup >I don't know if I am natural or unnatural sufi. I don't know if sufi's get >up in the morning, walk down the street, eat beans for dinner, have >breakfast under the stars, don't read newspapers, existed before the cresent >moon or after the full moon. In the Ruhaniats I am called a sufi and have >gone through initiation. >I know some words in other languages. I know some Dhikrs. I have a >friend/guide. >I believe there is no reality but God and this concept when meditated on >changes everything I thought I knew and still do not really know. If I am >not a sufi then I am a lover of the Beloved inside looking out at all the >other Beloveds. >Whatever I am, I see no divisions by God only limitations by dogma. >I think it does not matter what i think as brain stuff is dilluted in the pure >stream of Allah in all around all through all in all names and non-names. >I think a tree tells me more about this than any language. Kaffea lalla Amen, sister. God is not limited by man's understanding of God. It is we who are limited by our understanding of who we are. John. ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:19:15 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Salaams to one and all ---- For those who still recall reading some of my post in the past you'll remember that I have not always agreed with br. Abdallah Nureddin Durkee - -- but here I am totally in agreement Mysticism whatever the flavor does not exist in the abstract or in a vacuum. And sufism and being a sufi/dervish -- that is a pacticing sufi cannot do so outside of Islam. Now one may have an affinity for some of what the sufis do and believe in - -- be an admirer ( there is even a name in tariqat for such individuals - -- they're called muhibs, lover of the lovers)of the ways, its music and its art and even perform some of their practices, like dhikr and etc - -- but unless you move within the landscape of Islam you are not a sufi - -- natural of otherwise, and you are just deluding yourself. And if one persists in this delusion, for someone attempting to follow a path towards Truth (whatever the road or roads may be)this might be the greatest of self-deception and totally counter-productive to ones pursuits and progress along the spiritual path, whichever path one finally decide to embrace. I know there are some out there who will insist that their free-form of mysticism is Sufism, and no matter what anyone has told you or whatever argument you use -- that it is Love, Peace and Harmony, yes Sufism may contain this very element: but it isn't Sufism. Yes Sufism has had many faces in many parts of the world -- but no matter what face it was always the face of Islam, and I might add the most profound and beautiful face and aspects of Islam, the perfect and ideal Islam and sadly enough not always attainable. Salaams to one and all -- thank you for your patience. Simon Green Mountain School wrote: i am talking, or writing in this case, about sufis who used that articular word and no other word to describe themselves and there is certainly something about that particular word and everything else that comes along with that word that is intimately connected, entwined, shot to the marrow with the bow and arrow of 'islam and thats the truth and you can take it or leave it but, alhamdulillah, there it is and it my duty to remind you of that. every now and then. peace and best wishes in the is world, the imtermediate one and the last. A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:39:17 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh al-akbar, >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew just >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. > Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the written ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that is nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that Rumi was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious affiliation: PalmSprings What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved Jallalludin Rumi Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: BRYAN CONN Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (14) Al-Musawwir Assalaamu Alaikum! The following is from "The Most Beautiful Names" compiled by Sheikh Tosun Bayrak, published by Threshold Books - Amana Books ___________________________________________________________________ Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful ___________________________________________________________________ Al-Musawwir The perfect artist who gives everything the most unique and beautiful form is al-Musawwir. He is the one who, without using any model, shapes everything in the most perfect shape. No two things are the same--look at your fingerprints. Each and every creation is a choice creation, an expression of Allah's infinite beneficence and wisdom. Who created the mind, the eyes, and the hands that put all this together? That which man makes depends on many conditions, materials and helpers. Allah's creative act does not depend on any model, material, time, tool, helper, or anything else. When He creates, He says Kun, "Be!", and a whole universe becomes. Salaam, Bryan "Every holy person seems to have a different doctrine and practice, but there's really only one work. Someone listening to a millstone falls asleep. No matter. The stone keeps turning." -Rumi ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:57:58 -0700 Subject: RUMI 2614 Hello, everybody! I'M NOT GOING TO LEAVE this house and set out on a journey any more i've everything right here in every corner a garden of memories devoid of darkness devoid of fear the news of my journey spreading in this town is but a rumor of envy sent around by the enemy how can i think of going very far how can i walk headless how can i go with no soul how can i ever find anywhere in this world a more beautiful face a more desired beloved even the moon is seeking for this love to see its reflection to find its adornment if i ever talk about going to travel or leaving this town break my teeth with no qualms i've lost my feet going to the sea of love but like a boat i need no feet to crawl and even if you throw me out of your door i'll come back through the roof hole because of your love i'll be dancing and floating in this air as a speck of dust to finally settle into your house ghazal number 2614, translated February 16, 1992, by Nader Khalili. RUMI, "Fountain of Fire: A Celebration of Life and Love", translated from the original Persian (Diwan-i Shams-i Tabrizi, the Furuzanfar's 10th Persian edition) by Nader Khalili. Burning Gate Press, 1994, Burning Gate Press 3333 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 607 Los Angeles, CA 90010 (213) 383-5274 - FAX (213) 383-8038 info@bgpress.com http://www.bgpress.com/books/bgp.html Nader Khalili, internationally renowned architect, artist, author and teacher, is the founder of California Institute of Earth Art and Architecture. He lives in Hesperia, California. Burning Gate Press places an ode a day, for weeks, on their Web page about a year ago. That is how I obtained many of the odes posted here. I then purchased the book by mail for $13.95. tanzen ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:50:14 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Mr.McCaig--- You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you don't really understand what Rumi means here. This is the poem that is always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and their illusion. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a Muslim everyday of his life. One more word you are not Rumi. Salaams to one and all ---- Simon ====================================================================== James McCaig wrote: > > At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh > al-akbar, > >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew > just > >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. > > > Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the > written > ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that > is > nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? > > Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that > Rumi > was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious > affiliation: > > What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the > sea; > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of > entity. > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved > > Jallalludin Rumi > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center > Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: gberlind@crl.com (Gary Berlind) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:20:42 -0800 Subject: I'm naturally curious, naturally... It's interesting for me to see this renewed discussion (once again) about "Islamic Sufism" vs. "non-Islamic Sufism." It's interesting to me because this is the first time that I'm observing the discussion from my new (for me) "Islamic point of view," having finally taken Shahada from Shaykh Hisham and accepted Islam about a year ago. Others have written tons of words here on either side, and it does look like a bit of an impasse. But I'm curious as to whether or not those "non-Islamic Sufi's" who seem to so clearly believe that there can be Sufism without Islam have ever *really* looked into Islam, i.e., really read about it, looked for a tariqat, looked for an Islamic Shaykh, spent time with Muslims, etc. I guess I was lucky. It only took me a couple of years of being of the non-Islamic variety, before I was led onto the path. But I've known some others who've been non-Islamic for a verrrrry long time. I asked one of them, a very close friend, if he had learned the Fatihah yet. And he said "no, but I can sort of recite it along with others if they are doing it." And I said, "my friend, you've been on the fringes of Sufism for twenty years, and you consider yourself to be a Sufi. You know the Star Spangled Banner, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the names of hundreds of TV and Movie stars. Why haven't you made the effort to learn the Fatihah?" He had no answer, and to this day hasn't made the investment to learn the Fatihah. I've seen stuck automobiles that had less inertia than my friend. So I ask, out of curiosity, and out of hope, if some of our "non-Islamic" Sufi friends can answer these two basic questions: 1) How much investigation of Islam have you actually attempted? 2) If there *has* been some investigation on your parts, then could you share with us the reasons why you have chosen to not accept Islam? I think if some of you good souls out there could respond directly to these two questions, then maybe we could get to where the rubber hits the road on this issue. Like I said, I'm hopeful, in spite of what seems to be a zillion-year impasse. With respect to all, Abdul Matin Berlind ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:41:47 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: sufi words naturally A Sufi or a would-be-Sufi must realise that there is nothing worthy of worship but God.And to enable him to have a complete , fool proof , correct concept of God it is available only through Islam which is the final edition of the myriads of true religion which God revealed to humankind.All the spade work has been done by the Prophets of God .Why travel alone when Islam is there , when the Divine Message is unadulterated , when not a dot of the Quran has been changed over the last 1400 years and more.If you still cannot accept this , then at least cling to the conviction that there is nothing worthy to be worshipped , to be loved and obeyed but God Almighty.Insha'Llah your search for the Truth will bring you to the Truth. At 10:50 9/27/96 -0700, you wrote: >Mr.McCaig--- > >You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you >don't really understand what Rumi means here. This is the poem that is >always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that >Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and >their illusion. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even >aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in >case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it >does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a >Muslim everyday of his life. One more word you are not Rumi. > >Salaams to one and all ---- > >Simon >====================================================================== > >James McCaig wrote: >> >> At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh >> al-akbar, >> >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew >> just >> >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. >> > >> Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the >> written >> ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that >> is >> nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? >> >> Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that >> Rumi >> was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious >> affiliation: >> >> What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself >> I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. >> I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the >> sea; >> I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. >> I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; >> I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of >> entity. >> I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; >> I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. >> I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; >> >> I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. >> My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; >> 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved >> >> Jallalludin Rumi >> >> Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >> Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center >> Bookstore >> United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi >> >> jmccaig@worldweb.net > > ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:46:45 +0100 Subject: re: sufi and love apples and oranges and bannanas are all fruit inspite of the appearance that they look different. Allah illaha illahu If there is only one God, then the same God in you Is the same God in me, even if some say we are different. If God is in me then all is in me and i am in all And nothing separates me from you are you for me May we all praise the God of mercy, love, compassion, and Unity All the words of man that separate us, and make war with one another Cannot change the truth that in God we are one people with one heart and one goal, to bring peace, good will, and wisdom of God's will to this planet through us as simple servants. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:13:41 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Simon Bryquer wrote: > > Mr.McCaig--- > > You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you > don't really understand what Rumi means here. This is the poem that is > always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that > Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and > their illusion. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even > aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in > case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it > does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a > Muslim everyday of his life. One more word you are not Rumi. > > Salaams to one and all ---- > > Simon > ====================================================================== > > James McCaig wrote: > > > > At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh > > al-akbar, > > >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew > > just > > >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. > > > > > Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the > > written > > ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that > > is > > nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? > > > > Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that > > Rumi > > was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious > > affiliation: > > > > What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. > > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the > > sea; > > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of > > entity. > > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; > > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. > > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > > > > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. > > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved > > > > Jallalludin Rumi > > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center > > Bookstore > > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > > > jmccaig@worldweb.net Hello, So please Simon, don't leave me hanging. What does it mean? I have a guess, but it is only a guess. Salaams - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:02:45 +0100 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Simon said on Friday: A Sufi or a would-be-Sufi must realise that there is nothing worthy of worship but God.And to enable him to have a complete , fool proof , correct concept of God it is available only through Islam which is the final edition of the myriads of true religion which God revealed to humankind.All the spade work has been done by the Prophets of God .Why travel alone when Islam is there , when the Divine Message is unadulterated , when not a dot of the Quran has been changed over the last 1400 years and more.If you still cannot accept this , then at least cling to the conviction that there is nothing worthy to be worshipped , to be loved and obeyed but God Almighty.Insha'Llah your search for the Truth will bring you to the Truth. A: Are you suggesting that only Islam is foolproof, correct, concept of God? My problem is I believe in concepts in christianity that Islam does not believe. But I believe also in concepts of Islam that christians would probably have some problems with. But in truth I am as Islam as I am christian, and One in many traditions. B: The language is difficult for me to pronounce although I try to learn the beautiful names of God as the attributes of Allah. C: I have been open to learn about the Muslim faith through my friend who is Muslim. The five pillars of faith. About Ramadam, About prayers, I think you call it Salat? D: I also believe in concepts that have come from American Indian traditions And other faiths as well. E: While studying Joseph Campbell, I have learned many archtypes exist in many religions and many symbols have similar themes and roots. F: I consider myself as one who appreciates the similarities and differences and form no judgement (or try not to) of beliefs that do not match my own beliefs. G: The sufi's have said to know God, one must know oneself, and to know God is to know oneself. This is a continual journey. There are 10 sufi thoughts that I hold to. It states 1. There is One God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none else exists. 2. There is One Master, the guiding Spirit of all souls, who constantly leads all followers to the light. 3. There is One Holy Book, the Sacred Manuscript of Nature, the only Scripture which can enlighten the reader. 4. There is One Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction toward the Ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul. 5. There is One Law, the Law of Reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience together with a sense of awakened justice. 6. There is One Family, the Human Family, which unites the Children of Earth indiscriminately in the Parenthood of God. 7. There is One Moral, the Love which springs forth from a willing heart and blooms in deeds of beneficence. 8. There is One Object of Praise, the Beauty which uplifts the heart of its worshipper through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. 9. There is One Truth, the true Knowledge of our Being, within and without, which is the essence of all Wisdom. 10. There is One Path, the pilgrimage from the limited self to the Unlimited, which raises the mortal to Immortality, in which resides all Perfection. (These thoughts briefly are those represented by the Ruhaniat Order). Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #161 *****************************