From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:11:08 1996
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:51:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com
Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #155
tariqas-digest Monday, 23 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 155
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Asim Jalis <jalis@math.wisc.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 00:17:57 CDT
Subject: Strange Story
Michael Moore writes:
> How strange Imaan's story was to me. She and I are so very far apart in
> our experience of this world. Imagine what it would be like for me to
> step into her shoes for a while. A different sex, different culture,
> different world view, values; no doubt shock would drive me mad!
> I recall learning about the caste system as a young man. I was appauled.
> 'How', I thought, 'could so many people be made to believe that they were
> inferrior simply by virtue of who their parents were?' 'Why didn't those
> on the bottom rise up and say "This is rubbish and we are not going to do
> it!"'
Um, this happens in the US all the time, e.g. to African-Americans and also
to other minorities. I am surprised you found the caste system so alien
to your experience.
Asim
------------------------------
From: Craig Johannsen <johan@Ultranet.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:38:43 -0500
Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women
Hi Maarof,
You wrote:
> .... we sometimes pretend to be pious in front of
> God (in prayer hall) but showed our true selves in front of food.
I laughed very hard at this one. It's so true.
Salaams,
Craig
------------------------------
From: Craig Johannsen <johan@Ultranet.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:54:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions
Hi Nur,
Thanks for your extensive and learned reply to my comments on St. Francis.
With his status as a Sufi on such shakey ground, I certainly don't want
to be the one who argues in favor of the proposition, especially since I
can write everything I know about this topic on my thumbnail. Maybe, as
Zainuddin suggests, Idries Shah would reply. I'd love to hear
what he has to say.
Salaams,
Craig
------------------------------
From: Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor <Sayeed_Siddiqui@stentor.ca>
Date: 23 Sep 96 9:25:54
Subject: Re: Shaytan
Arsalaan wrote:
>> Can any one illuminate the inner meaning of prohibiting prayer at
>> sun rise/set.
IMHO, In pre-Islam period the pagan tribes were worshipping the Sun at these
times and the prohibition was to avoid any confusion or semblence to such
rituals
Fi Aman Illah
Sayeed
------------------------------
From: frank gaude <frank@sierra.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:57:08 -0700
Subject: RUMI 1515
HOW VERY CLOSE
is your soul with mine
i know for sure
everything you think
goes through my mind
i am with you
now and doomsday
not like a host
caring for you
at a feast alone
with you i am happy
all the times
the time i offer my life
or the time
you gift me your love
offering my life
is a profitable venture
each life i give
you pay in turn
a hundred lives again
in this house
there are a thousand
dead and still souls
making you stay
as this will be yours^¿
a handful of earth
cries aloud
i used to be hair or
i used to be bones
and just the moment
when you are all confused
leaps forth a voice
hold me close
i'm love and
i'm always yours
ghazal number 1515, translated March, 1991, by Nader Khalili
The light which shines in the eye
Is really the light of the heart.
The light which fills the heart
is the light of Allah.
--Rumi
tanzen
------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:56:19 +0800
Subject: Limits
as salaamu 'alaikum
[from "And the Sky is not the Limit." by Amatullah Armstrong]
When Shaykh Abu'l Hasan ash Shadhili met his master, Shaykh Abd'su
Salam ibn Mashish, he said:
"O Allah! I have washed myself of my knowledge and my action so that
I own neither knowledge nor action except for what comes to me from this
Shaykh."
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Which brings me to my question= how does one know that one has found
one's murshid? Or is it that the murshid finds the mureed? Does anyone know
of any female shaykhs? I worry about this very much, in terms of the adab
etc...and I worry that I may never find my murshid...I know of a br, an
aspirant who for the past 10 years, has been searching and has met many
shaykhs, but not *his* murshid. Yet other brs and srs have found their
murshid almost from the beginning; yet others claim that a murshid is not
necessary; I am confused:_)
Then we come to the question of the relationship between the mureed
and murshid. How secret is secret? How is this secrecy likely to affect the
relationship of the mureed/murshid with his/her spouse? I am someone who
hates to keep secrets from those dear to her, and likewise, I would hope
that anyone dear to me would not keep secrets from either...so then what
happens when one or both parties in a relationship have secrets from one
another? Are there any couples on tariqas who have different murshids? Any
problems?
I have a lot of questions, and a lot of doubts...worries:-) Anyone
with any advice? Jazak Allahu Khair:-)Sorry for being such a bother:-) wasalaam.
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
------------------------------
From: Hafizullah@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:29:20 -0400
Subject: Re: No Subject
In a message dated 96-09-21 12:50:12 EDT, you write:
<< Are there any sufi orders based around the Madison Wisconsin
area? >>
There is a very active Sufi Order of the West center in Madison. Contact the
Sufi Order Secretariat at 75166.1770@compuserve.com for details.
------------------------------
From: BRYAN CONN <s001blc@discover.wright.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:21:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Limits
Assalaamu Alaikum All!
On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Imaan Joshi wrote:
> I have a lot of questions, and a lot of doubts...worries:-) Anyone
> with any advice? Jazak Allahu Khair:-)Sorry for being such a bother:-)
I stumbled across the following just before reading your post, and it
occured to me that perhaps what I stumbled across was a response to your
worries... maybe not... :\
___________________________________________________________________________
Every object, and yet to be object
marks this path.
The road forks and we become worried,
but there's a third choice
that's chosen for us.
Our safety net is this:
That what is to come,
is already. And there's no changing that fact.
If you've lost the path,
then test the breeze.
If the air is still,
then rely on scent.
You've lost your senses
but don't stop traveling.
If you can't walk, then crawl.
If you can't move,
then become a perfect stillness.
If you're a fidgeter, then fidget.
There's no laziness to prevent this progress.
____________________________________________________________________________
Salaam to All,
Bryan
------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Moore" <mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:22:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Strange Story
Lilyan Kay wrote:
>
> asalaam-u-aleikum Michael
>
> I am just wondering, how did you know that the women on the sidewalk were
> Muslims?
>
> Lily
Hello Lily,
It was the Hijaab that kind of gave it away. But that is a good question
which leads me to wonder what percentage of muslim women in
Northern California ware hijaab. I had assumed that most did but
this assumption was based on women I have seen as the masjid which
is obviously NOT are representative sample.
- --
- -Michael-
------------------------------
From: Dr Syed Rashid Ali <rasyed@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:46:35 +0400
Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women
Fred Rice wrote:
>
> Sometimes this behaviour is cultural.... Allah knows best if it is a form
> of discrimination against women - to me, I think it probably depends on the
> cultural context. In some cultures, it might be seen as such, in other
> cultures, perhaps not, since in those cultures the women perhaps also do
> not greet the men, Allah knows best (i.e. it wouldn't just be one way)....
I agree with Br Farid. In UAE, for example, it is very awkward and not
welcomed
if you greet a lady who is walking along the way.
I can't remember the reference but I read somewhere in the books of Fiqh
that
if the woman's face is hidden with hijab, she should not be greeted;
whereas
if her face is open, she should be greeted in the usual Islamic manner.
Wassalam
Rashid
>
> Fariduddien
- --
"YOU CAN'T BE FAITHFUL UNLESS YOU LOVE ME MORE THAN YOUR FATHER,
YOUR SON & ALL MANKIND."(Sahih Bukhari)
http://www.nl-marketing.com/netlink/rashid/
------------------------------
From: Rashid <rasyed@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:01:35 +0400
Subject: Observing Self; was Re: Desire
Michael J. Moore wrote:
> To begin to learn to control thoughts involves a technique called observation.
> I am using 'observation' as a technical term. Learn to first Observe
> your thoughts. Create in your head, two selves, the 'observing self' and the
> your thinking self. But rather than describe in detail this technique,
> I will tell you it is from the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.
Dear Michael
AA
That is a very fascinating concept. I would be grateful if you can
provide some
more info on this subject. Where can I get literature on the teachings
of
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?
Is it possible for you to guide me to adopt this technique?
Wassalam
Rashid
------------------------------
From: frank gaude <frank@sierra.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:03:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Together sharing You
Hudoyo Hupudio wrote:
> >You are in my heart. You lead me many places, and even into churches,
[...]
> >live on the earth and commune with you in the sacred groves of the heart, are
> >Loved by you and have their life in You.
> >Kaffea Lalla
>
> Dear Kaffea, how beautiful!
>
> In the past I used to think, I am in You;
> Now I realize, You are in me;
> One day I hope to say, I and You are One.
>
> Hudoyo
You just did say it: "I and You are One", and it is true; I believe it
and I think that you do also.
Peace and love,
tanzen
------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Moore" <mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:51:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Strange Story
Asim Jalis wrote:
>
> Michael Moore writes:
>
> > How strange Imaan's story was to me. She and I are so very far apart in
> > our experience of this world. Imagine what it would be like for me to
> > step into her shoes for a while. A different sex, different culture,
> > different world view, values; no doubt shock would drive me mad!
>
> > I recall learning about the caste system as a young man. I was appauled.
> > 'How', I thought, 'could so many people be made to believe that they were
> > inferrior simply by virtue of who their parents were?' 'Why didn't those
> > on the bottom rise up and say "This is rubbish and we are not going to do
> > it!"'
>
> Um, this happens in the US all the time, e.g. to African-Americans and also
> to other minorities. I am surprised you found the caste system so alien
> to your experience.
>
> Asim
Hello Asim,
Well now that is hardly the same thing is it. There are some black
people
in all facets of US society. Black supreme court judges, black doctors,
lawyers
scientists, professors, senators, generals. There was even bussing for a
while
to attempt to create more mixing and all kinds of laws against
descrimination
against people based on race. In theory, a black man should have the
same
opportunity and rights as a white man. This is the ideal, and while we
know that in actual practice we fall a little short, the ideal is what
is
taught in American schools. We are taught that all men are created equal
and have equal rights under the law.
The ideal is that the institutions of the US are color blind but you
have mentioned my experience. I was raised in an agricultural area.
During
the summer months when schools were out I would get a job harvesting
crops.
There were beans, berries, lettuce, approcots, apples etc. Many
migratory
Mexicans would follow the crops. They were called bracerros, Spanish
for arms. We would all meet at 6 am and the bus would take us to the
fields.
We ate lunch together, drank the same water, and worked hard. Some of
these people settled in the area and others took their money back to
their
families in Mexico. Those that settled had children and many of these
children were my best friends. When we stood in line for lunch at school
it was first come first serve. Black, brown, yellow, and white, nobody
cared. We were much more interested in how well a guy could handle a
basket
ball than we were about social standing. I remember the names of a
couple of
'cool' guys; Jose Diaz, and Rick Sugimoto. So, you can see, MY
experience
was very remote from the idea of a caste system.
As for the caste system in India, I dont know much about it but I ASSUME
it is legal. I ASSUME that there is little mobility between the castes.
I assume that people within the caste system believe in it and do not
object.
I am not saying that there is no 'class' system in the US of A. There
IS!
But it is much more clever than a caste system, much more insidious
because it does show itself as 'officially sanctioned' but rather
reveals
itself in the hateful hearts and actions of individuals and as secondary
effects of laws and policies.
- --
- -Michael-
------------------------------
From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:01:04 +0100
Subject: Re: Together sharing You
>Hudoyo Hupudio wrote:
>
>> >You are in my heart. You lead me many places, and even into churches,
>[...]
>> >live on the earth and commune with you in the sacred groves of the
heart, are
>> >Loved by you and have their life in You.
>> >Kaffea Lalla
>>
>> Dear Kaffea, how beautiful!
>>
>> In the past I used to think, I am in You;
>> Now I realize, You are in me;
>> One day I hope to say, I and You are One.
>>
>> Hudoyo
>
>You just did say it: "I and You are One", and it is true; I believe it
>and I think that you do also.
>
>Peace and love,
>
>tanzen
>
>-------We are one...I believe, and thankyou
Love Kaffea.
------------------------------
From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:06:56 EDT
Subject: Re: Strange Story
Dear Michael, :)
>How strange Imaan's story was to me. She and I are so very far
>apart in our experience of this world. Imagine what it would be like
>for me to step into her shoes for a while. A different sex,
>different culture, different world view, values; no doubt
>shock would drive me mad!
ahhh, but the BEAUTY of doing just that! The beauty of this list...
walking in one another's moccasins, if even for a brief moment!
'mad' isn't such a 'bad' place to be. <<grinnn>
>I recall learning about the caste system as a young man. I was
>appauled. 'How', I thought, 'could so many people be made to
>believe that they were inferrior simply by virtue of who their
>parents were?' 'Why didn't those on the bottom rise up and
>say "This is rubbish and we are not going to do it!"'
I remember thinking the same thing! :) My school books talked about
these concepts that were (are) so foreign to my own experience... i
could /not/ place myself in that other person's place... not for a
minute! (of course our school books do not tell us about /people/... the
reality of what people are like... who they are, their likes and
dislikes, their pain and joy... ).
>Now I understand that at the core of my outrage was not
>so much and objection to my perceived social injustice, but
>rather a certain anxiouity brought about by a confrontation
>with the 'unknowable'; the strange. I just 'didn't get it.'
>And there was no way to 'get it'. We were just too different!
Exactly! :) Understanding does not come easily when our "ways" are so
different. Now i work towards understanding... those who are
different... those who are the same....
>For example prior to Islam I was involved in a Shamanic tradition.
If you do not mind me asking, Michael, do you look at the "Shamanic
tradition" as being incompatible with Islam/Sufism?
>We has sweat lodges. Men and women took off all of their clothes
>and crammed into a small hut bodies touching bodies. I won't
>go into the details of the ritual but will say that it was
>absolutely non-sexual. We were not there to have sex, we were
>there to have healing and do medicine. The sweat lodges were
>the most intense purifying experiences that I have ever had.
I've been blessed to have been part of a sweat ceremony too. Again, i do
not mean to pry or ask inappropriate questions... but, if it is not out
of line... is there a reason you no longer (i assume) take part in these
kinds of ceremonies?
>You can see then, where it is most difficult for me to understand
>the mentality that covers up something as innocent as a woman
>hair for fear that it may some how be provocative when I have
>danced naked with women and felt nothing but the common
>bond of our humanity and fraility in this vast creation.
>From my perspective--
it is difficult for me to 'be naked' (literally, and figurtively) in the
company of men -- especially men i do not know. We are ALL naked
(literally and figurtively) in front of God... and much of life, i think,
is about learning this.
Even so... women's Circles are more comfortable for me... there is no
feeling of 'mental rape' as can be experienced in the company of 'less
enlightened' men. With some men i feel completely 'safe'... free to BE
.... with others, well... i feel a need to hide... (this is likely /my/
problem...)
>I'm not sure what my point is, except that I am feeling
>a little sad that we must be so separated by our own
>private worlds.
This is great sadness we all suffer! ... we are not separate! ... we are
One... and we forget... God help me remember!
>We think the world is one way because we have closed the doors
>to alternate realities. Our culture tells us, "Don't open
>that door, it will destroy you." And from their perspecitve
>they are right, because once you have opened the door/
>tasted the fruit/ you cannot go back. You have become larger
>and you will no longer fit into your cultural slot. Sure,
>you can pretend, and maybe even convence everybody that
>you are back, but you will need to sacrifice your internal
>integrity. You will create a schizm. You cannot go back
>and you will be alone, an outcast, seeking the comfort
>of fellow travelers.
let's keep opening the doors to understanding and love!
we will perhaps feel 'alone' for a time, but always, always... God is
with us!
>I am probably only making since to myserf, so I will stop.
you make sense to me.... more so, you have touched that within me which
is beyond 'sense' -- that which is beyond what i /thought/ was real...
thank you.
much love to all!
carol
------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Moore" <mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:39:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Observing Self; was Re: Desire
Rashid wrote:
>
> Michael J. Moore wrote:
>
> > To begin to learn to control thoughts involves a technique called observation.
> > I am using 'observation' as a technical term. Learn to first Observe
> > your thoughts. Create in your head, two selves, the 'observing self' and the
> > your thinking self. But rather than describe in detail this technique,
> > I will tell you it is from the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.
>
> Dear Michael
>
> AA
>
> That is a very fascinating concept. I would be grateful if you can
> provide some
> more info on this subject. Where can I get literature on the teachings
> of
> Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?
>
> Is it possible for you to guide me to adopt this technique?
>
> Wassalam
>
> Rashid
Ha! Me guiding somebody? Now that would be a sight! Are you familiar
with
'The Fool' of the tarot?
Naw, I'll leave the guiding to the pros.
'The 4th Way' by P.D. Ouspensky. The instructions are clear and the
results are confirmable.
Cheers,
- --
- -Michael-
------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:13:33 +0800
Subject: Re: RUMI 1515
At 06:57 23/09/96 -0700, you wrote:
as salaamu 'alaikum Br tanzen...
That was beautiful:-) so very beautiful...masha'Allah...I am in a
sentimental mood today:-)
wasalaam.
>HOW VERY CLOSE
> is your soul with mine
> i know for sure
> everything you think
> goes through my mind
>
> i am with you
> now and doomsday
> not like a host
> caring for you
> at a feast alone
>
> with you i am happy
> all the times
> the time i offer my life
> or the time
> you gift me your love
>
> offering my life
> is a profitable venture
> each life i give
> you pay in turn
> a hundred lives again
>
> in this house
> there are a thousand
> dead and still souls
> making you stay
> as this will be yours=7F
>
> a handful of earth
> cries aloud
> i used to be hair or
> i used to be bones
>
> and just the moment
> when you are all confused
> leaps forth a voice
> hold me close
> i'm love and
> i'm always yours
>
>ghazal number 1515, translated March, 1991, by Nader Khalili
>
>The light which shines in the eye
> Is really the light of the heart.
> The light which fills the heart
> is the light of Allah.
> --Rumi
>
>tanzen
>
>
>
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
=09
------------------------------
From: "Michael J. Moore" <mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:33:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Strange Story
Hello Carol,
>
Michael said:
> >For example prior to Islam I was involved in a Shamanic tradition.
>
Carol asked:
> If you do not mind me asking, Michael, do you look at the "Shamanic
> tradition" as being incompatible with Islam/Sufism?
>
Well, we must first ask "Who's Shamanism?" and "Who's Islam?".
They are probably not compatible. I doubt if I could walk into
a mosque, sprinkle corn meal on the floor, and call in a wheel
buy invoking the spirit keepers of the four directions. I doubt
if I could make salaat to grandfather fire.
There were some elements
of this group's specific brand of Shamanism that were very effective
in bringing about personal transformation such as the 'releasing
sweat lodge' which more closely resembled 'primal scream' therapy.
And there were other
elements such as working with calling certain energies into
chrystals, that just seemed like a bunch of hocus-pocus to me.
As a Shamanic group, we believed in a Creator but spent time
trying to manipulate unseen spiritual forces. It seemed more
reasonable to me that one should just ask the Creator; go
straight to the source; 'why mess around with the middle men'.
- --
Michael
------------------------------
From: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:49:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women
Assalamu alaikum,
On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Craig Johannsen wrote:
> Hi Maarof,
>
> You wrote:
> > .... we sometimes pretend to be pious in front of
> > God (in prayer hall) but showed our true selves in front of food.
>
> I laughed very hard at this one. It's so true.
Me too!!! What a wonderful insight it is!!! :)
Wassalam,
Fariduddien
------------------------------
End of tariqas-digest V1 #155
*****************************