From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:10:39 1996 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #153 tariqas-digest Sunday, 22 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 153 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Bryquer Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 02:03:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Salaams Nur ------ Nur are you sure that Meister Eckhart is the author of _The Cloud of Unknowing_? I was led to believe that it was an English mystic. Simon Gale wrote: > And of course the Dionysian writings were a major source of inspiration for Meister Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing (the title of this text is taken from Dionysius), Erigenia, the Rhineland mystics, the Victorines, Jacob Boehme, the Italian Renaissance alchemists such as Pico and Ficino, etc. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:43:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Simon wrote: > Nur are you sure that Meister Eckhart is the author of _The Cloud of > Unknowing_? I was led to believe that it was an English mystic. Sorry Simon, no i was listing the two separately. The Cloud of Unknowing is an anonymous text. Nur ------------------------------ From: Imaan Joshi Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:54:52 +0800 Subject: Thank you; shukran:-) as salaamu 'alaikum To all of you who took the time and energy to respond to my [often] wild ravings on the list:-) I do appreciate the kindness, and the sentiments:-) It feels wonderful to be a part of such a wonderful and yes, non judgemental group, where Insh'Allah, we are trying to help one another, not cut each other down:-) Carol, Br Asim, Br Jinavamsa and Br fariduddien, thank you all so very much for your input:-) I did appreciate it greatly:-) alHamdulillah, I feel so blessed:-) wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:00:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: Ebionites and Nazarenes (was Re: Changes and Transitions) Dear Nur, Assalamu alaikum, I was wondering, in your investigation into early forms of Christianity, have you ever tried to investigate the Ebionites or the Nazarenes? (Early Jewish Christians.) I'd be interested in knowing what you had found, if you have. >From what I know, the Ebionites and Nazarenes seemed to descend from the Church in Jerusalem headed by James (Jesus' brother), rather than being descended from Paul as the Catholic Church is. They kept Jewish Law, and did not believe that Jesus was God or son of God. Many of them believed Jesus (pbwh) was the Messiah and born of a virgin. Some of the differences between the teachings of the Church in Jerusalem headed by James and the teachings of Paul, and the friction between these two factions, are indicated in the Acts of the Apostles and also in Galatians.... However, I wish we knew more about the Ebionites and Nazarenes. Unfortunately, all I've been able to find is material written by those hostile to them (i.e. by the Catholic Church). Any of their original material appears to have been destroyed by a victorious Roman Catholic Church (though there is some indication that they accepted the Gospel of Matthew). My interest in them is that they represent an early Christian Church, with direct links to Jesus, peace be with him. As well as that, what we know about their beliefs about Jesus (pbwh) are incredibly similar to Islamic teachings about Jesus (pbwh). Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:27:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Ebionites and Nazarenes (was Re: Changes and Transitions) Bism-Allahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim Hello, Fariduddien and Nur Gale, et al! > Dear Nur, Assalamu alaikum, > > I was wondering, in your investigation into early forms of Christianity, > have you ever tried to investigate the Ebionites or the Nazarenes? > (Early Jewish Christians.) I'd be interested in knowing what you had > found, if you have. > > >From what I know, the Ebionites and Nazarenes seemed to descend from > the Church in Jerusalem headed by James (Jesus' brother), rather than > being descended from Paul as the Catholic Church is. They kept > Jewish Law, and did not believe that Jesus was God or son of God. > Many of them believed Jesus (pbwh) was the Messiah and born of a virgin. >From what history has to offer it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine just what Jesus taught and the various threads that came together to produce what we know as Roman Catholic Church. As Nur points out with his "horizontal" and "vertical" metaphor (earthly facts and heavenly knowledge) for 1) understanding ,and 2) knowing: we know and can "prove it", and we just Know. Two interesting books that show just how far three scholars and poets were able to go: "Sod, the Son of Man", Dunlap, (Jerome and the Hebrew Matthew Gospel, Ebionites, Nazarenes), 19th century "The Nazarene Gospel Restored"--Robert Graves and Joshua Podro, London, 1953 (Hebrew Matthew Gospel) >From vertical knowledge (High Self <-- Spirit of Guidance) Jesus was one who tried to teach the people, those that were ready, WHAT we are, how to be whole, how to heal ourselves. Much of this can be gleaned from the untouched "Gospel of Thomas". The trail of the Huna teachings, as well as that of Jesus, are so obscure because "people were, are not ready". But... High Self tells me Jesus had full knowledge of universal sufism as while as that of the Kahunas, and added his own insight to teaching those who wanted to learn... few were ready. Kahunas came from Atlantis, migrated through Egypt, then on to India, then to the Pacific islands. Leavin' on a light note: "Contrary to popular opinion, God's last name is not Damn." Peace and love, tanzen al-Hamdu'lillah ------------------------------ From: MFKimball@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:15:36 -0400 Subject: to greet or not to greet women/Fariduddien Assalamu Alaikum Fariduddien Thanks for the info about the Australian lady. I can understand (for reasons of shyness or whatever else) if someone feels more comfortable in a hidden place, and such an area could be provided in addition, but don't you think it makes sense that it not be imposed on all, simply because some people prefer it? ...especially if it keeps people from coming? Best, MFK ------------------------------ From: MFKimball@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:32:36 -0400 Subject: to greet or not to greet women/JInavamsa Assalamu Alaikum, Jinavamsa Thanks for your openness on the subject. Yes I generally say goodbye in a small group to individuals, unless men are very evasive or shy. People generally respond in kind. Again it's funny to be taught that contact with the opposite sex implies sexual innuendo. Hopefully this would be the exception in a wholesome setting where Islam teaches virtue. This has got to be a cultural belief, because there is not alot of common sense in believing that contact implies sexual innuendo. Humanity simply needs to communicate with eachother. I think we begin to accept nonsense out of habit. Forgive me if I have offended anyone. This is not my intention. I just think we need to get on a mentally healthy track of communication and interaction. Best Wishes MFK ------------------------------ From: MFKimball@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:38:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Woman greeting men/Kaffea Lalla Greetings I agree with all you are saying about intuiting people's intentions on the street. The street is not the place I was referring to, of course, but a congregation of people who have gathered for a common religious or spiritual practice. Street ettiquette is a different story. ------------------------------ From: MFKimball@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:43:37 -0400 Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women/Zainuddin Assalamu Alaikum Zainuddin Thanks for the info about Singapore and Malaysia. When you talk about women lecturers are you referring to women giving Khutbah? Salams MFK ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 11:09:19 -0700 Subject: Re. Ebionites & Nazarenes Greetings Fariduddin. Here's what i have on the Ebionites/Nazarenes at = the moment.. Well, this is what Epiphanius (circ. 350) says about their presumed = founder - Epiphanius was a chronic witch-hunter living in Palestine who = must have been a cantankerous paranoid who probably wet his tunic a lot. = Anyway this is what he writes: [The school of thought called Archontics is next... at the end of the = reign of Constantius, this weed had already been sown in Lesser Armenia = by a certain Armenian named Eutaktos. He was temporarily residing in = Palestine, learned this evil teaching and then returned home to teach = it. Now in Palestine he had received it from a certain man named Peter = - -- who was unworthy of the name. The latter lived in the territory = belonging to Eleutheropolis of Jerusalem, three miles from Hebron. The = village is called Kapharbarikha. This old man had an astonishing = disguise filled with hypocrisy. On the outside he was wrapped in lamb's = fleece but it passed unnoticed that inside he was a ravenous wolf. For = he appeared to be a hermit living in a cave. He led many people to a = life of renunciation and was called "father" because of his age and his = monastic dress, and he distributed his possessions to the poor and gave = alms daily. In his youth he had been found in many schools of thought. = But in the time of Aetius the bishop he was denounced. Next he followed = the school of gnostics, and he was deprived of the priesthood -- for he = had once been appointed a priest. And after his denouncement he was = expelled from office by Aetius, departed, and lived in Kokabe in Arabia = (seems to be near modern day Deraa in Jordan) from which the roots of = the Ebionites and the Nazareans sprang.] Hmmm.... sounds like an American election campaign speech. There is a = lot of difficulty identifying who the Nazareans actually were. (Not to = be confused with Nassenes who were serpent worshippers, nass being = Helenized Hebrew for snake) In some literature they are synonymous with = Christians (eg. reference to Jesus as from Nazareth), in other texts = they are different religions, and elsewhere they are even identified = with the Mandeans (the Quranic Sabians?), a gnostic baptismal religion = claiming John the Baptist as its founder. But that is all i have for = now. i'll look into it a bit more if i find the time.=20 Another point. Not to raise the Catholic Church to heights of impeccable = worthiness, i would comment however that we have to be careful when = speaking about repressions and censorship with our associating what is = today the Catholic Church with the ruling Christianity(s) of the first 8 = centuries. As of the 6th century, the various churches with seats in = Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria were a single = unit, even if their theologies differed at times. Kind of like the = American Congress except with a few more parties, and Rome was given a = kind of special place like California has because it offers the most = electoral votes!) One minute a particular theology or christology was = in power, and the next minute another was favored. Politics as usual. =20 Blessings to all, Nur ------------------------------ From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 11:42:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Re. Ebionites & Nazarenes Dear Ones: Don't know about Ebionites, but Nazarenes have a special connotation from the Tanach. Anyone can be a Nazir after taking specific vows of celibacy, not cutting hair, etc. to be done for a predetermined period of time. There were several figures who could have been Nazirs in the Prophets. For example, Samson is considered by some as a Nazir who broke his vows. In some ways, I wonder if Shams (another sun referring first name) was also one, as perhaps Yahya (John the Baptist), Jesus, Samuel and many others. It also sometimes seems that the Qalander Sufis have some of this pattern, etc. The evening of Yom Kippur (tonight) has within it specifics of cancelling vows and promises that were taken on and not met or kept. I sometimes wonder if some of the intent for the formalized renunciation of these promises, etc, were not in some way necessary because of the tendency of some to be moved by some event during life and taking on some of these overwhelming vows and promises. At least once a year there is the possibility of formally calling on the escape clauses. B'Salam/Shalom Raqib > >Greetings Fariduddin. Here's what i have on the Ebionites/Nazarenes at = >the moment.. > >Well, this is what Epiphanius (circ. 350) says about their presumed = >founder - Epiphanius was a chronic witch-hunter living in Palestine who = >must have been a cantankerous paranoid who probably wet his tunic a lot. = >Anyway this is what he writes: > >[The school of thought called Archontics is next... at the end of the = >reign of Constantius, this weed had already been sown in Lesser Armenia = >by a certain Armenian named Eutaktos. He was temporarily residing in = >Palestine, learned this evil teaching and then returned home to teach = >it. Now in Palestine he had received it from a certain man named Peter = >-- who was unworthy of the name. The latter lived in the territory = >belonging to Eleutheropolis of Jerusalem, three miles from Hebron. The = >village is called Kapharbarikha. This old man had an astonishing = >disguise filled with hypocrisy. On the outside he was wrapped in lamb's = >fleece but it passed unnoticed that inside he was a ravenous wolf. For = >he appeared to be a hermit living in a cave. He led many people to a = >life of renunciation and was called "father" because of his age and his = >monastic dress, and he distributed his possessions to the poor and gave = >alms daily. In his youth he had been found in many schools of thought. = >But in the time of Aetius the bishop he was denounced. Next he followed = >the school of gnostics, and he was deprived of the priesthood -- for he = >had once been appointed a priest. And after his denouncement he was = >expelled from office by Aetius, departed, and lived in Kokabe in Arabia = >(seems to be near modern day Deraa in Jordan) from which the roots of = >the Ebionites and the Nazareans sprang.] > >Hmmm.... sounds like an American election campaign speech. There is a = >lot of difficulty identifying who the Nazareans actually were. (Not to = >be confused with Nassenes who were serpent worshippers, nass being = >Helenized Hebrew for snake) In some literature they are synonymous with = >Christians (eg. reference to Jesus as from Nazareth), in other texts = >they are different religions, and elsewhere they are even identified = >with the Mandeans (the Quranic Sabians?), a gnostic baptismal religion = >claiming John the Baptist as its founder. But that is all i have for = >now. i'll look into it a bit more if i find the time.=20 > >Another point. Not to raise the Catholic Church to heights of impeccable = >worthiness, i would comment however that we have to be careful when = >speaking about repressions and censorship with our associating what is = >today the Catholic Church with the ruling Christianity(s) of the first 8 = >centuries. As of the 6th century, the various churches with seats in = >Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria were a single = >unit, even if their theologies differed at times. Kind of like the = >American Congress except with a few more parties, and Rome was given a = >kind of special place like California has because it offers the most = >electoral votes!) One minute a particular theology or christology was = >in power, and the next minute another was favored. Politics as usual. =20 > >Blessings to all, > >Nur > > - -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:25:17 +0100 Subject: Together sharing You You are in my heart. You lead me many places, and even into churches, synagogues, or mosques...or around a medicine wheel and in a Sufi Circle. Your guidance is within. When I go here or there, I sometimes hear People say do not, God is not there, that ritual is foolish, that is not The way, that is false, and so many warnings are cried out. Dear God, You are love. You lead and I follow you into all these places. How many times I also have judged these humans of all their ways and teachings. How wrong was i to decide the way anyone worships their Creator. How small has Been my opionions of this or that. I am sure my Beloved Friend, that all who live on the earth and commune with you in the sacred groves of the heart, are Loved by you and have their life in You. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:47:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Nazarenes Here's from the Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 7 pg. 970 (EJ Brill, Leiden) = on nasara: Nasara, plural of nasrani, nasrana in feminine form is a noun which = currently denotes Christians in the Arab world. Used 15 times in the = Quran and is interpreted by the majority of commentators and Arab = geographers and lexicographers as derived from the name of the locality = of Nazareth (al-Nasira)... refers to name of Jesus by his contemporaries = who called him the Nazarene, whence his disciples were initially called = Nazarenes by the Jewish community as shown in Acts of the Apostles 24:5 = where Paul is described as "a leader of the sect of the Nazarenes. The = name, the most ancient applied to Christians, is attested in ancient = Armenian, and is still in use today in the Malayalam district (in South = India, Kerala) in the form nazranikal as the name of the evangelist of = southern India, St. Thomas. The name Nazarenes, preserved in the Quran, = thus precedes the name Christians which appears for the first time in = Antioch in approximately AD 50... in sources later than the apostolic = era of Christianity, but previous to Islam, there is a distinction made = between Nazarenes and Christians, the term Nazarenes being then applied = to Judeo-Christian sects which "acknowledged the Messiah as Son of God, = but conducted themselves in all respects as Jews" as stated by Theodore = bar Kuni around AD 800. But the term nasara does not seem to have had the Judeo-Christian = connotation in the Quran where it appears rather to involve the more = ancient denomination mentioned above and continuing in use, in the form = nazeri, among the Jews, more numerous than Christians in the regions of = Mecca and Medina. It recurs in the malediction against the Nazarenes = contained in the official prayer of the Synagogue, the Tephilla, in the = form codified by Rabban Gamaliel II towards the end of the first = century. The influence of groups specifically described as Nazarene, = Ebionites or Elkasaites (by the way, Mani grew up in an Elkasaite = community on the Tigris-Euphrates, cf. the Cologne Mani Codex) which, it = has been claimed, are perceptible in the Quran, have led some to believe = that the Quran was a "Nazarene preaching mission" (cf. al-Kur'an da'wa = nasraniyya, by al-Ustadh Haddad), but no such conclusions are to be = drawn from the presence of the word Nasara in the Quran. Here the word = denotes Christians in general, in the eastern groups known to the = Muslims, groups which were to be distributed in the classical sources on = al-milal wa 'l-nihal into sects: Nestorian (Nasturiyya), Melkite = (Malkaniyya), and Jacobite (Ya'kubiyya). =20 As for the term masihi (pl. masihiyyun), Arabic transcription of the = Greek christianoi, and derived from the name Christ, al-Masih, it was = only used according to the Muslim writer al-Sam'ani (12th c.) by = Christians among themselves. And it goes on, and on, and on..... Blessings, Nur ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:13:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Where Kahuna fit in? Bismillah ar-Rahman ir-Rahim Hello, everybody! As-salaamu alaykum maarof wrote: > About Brahma and Tao, I find Brahma is similar > with Abraham (Ibrahim), and Tao is similar to Tawhid. This is again > another novice assumption that there is connection between Brahma, Tao > and Tawhid/Islam (religion of Abraham). > > But where does Kahuna fit in this scheme? And the Great North American > Spiritualism? Not too difficult if you are willing to go back before recorded history, to the times of Atlantis and before, when the earth's land masses were not where they are today. Kahuna (keeper of the secret) and North American Native traditions come from the same source... even Great Spirit is equated to Huna High Self, and Great Mysterious to Absolute, Unknowable, Allah, God. (From void to subatomic particle to collective High Self, jinn and angel, covers many levels of consciousness, all in Union, one without limits.) Many believe that the Summerians of 10,000 years ago got they wisdom, knowledge from the Huna Source (Adamic Crack), and that that knowledge moved through Persia to the Indus Valley and thus Vedas codes (Brahma)... some of this sorta comes through the Upanishads, don't you think? Since Native Americans had little written language not much of their history can be found, even on rocks and in caves, but what there is points to the same Source, the same love, the wonder of self and divinity. The knowledge of WHAT we are (pure spirit) is buried within our bones. Kahunas have kept a certain knowledge simple; Hindus and others, people in general, have made it the more complex. People with their wills and "thoughts of lack" have always tried to control others, through politics and religions; but that is the path of learning. Here, now, there is nothing but opportunity! al-Hamdu'lillah :)(: Peace and love, down these silver threads of gold, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:36:02 -0700 Subject: Strange Story Hello, How strange Imaan's story was to me. She and I are so very far apart in our experience of this world. Imagine what it would be like for me to step into her shoes for a while. A different sex, different culture, different world view, values; no doubt shock would drive me mad! I recall learning about the caste system as a young man. I was appauled. 'How', I thought, 'could so many people be made to believe that they were inferrior simply by virtue of who their parents were?' 'Why didn't those on the bottom rise up and say "This is rubbish and we are not going to do it!"' Now I understand that at the core of my outrage was not so much and objection to my perceived social injustice, but rather a certain anxiouity brought about by a confrontation with the 'unknowable'; the strange. I just 'didn't get it.' And there was no way to 'get it'. We were just too different! For example prior to Islam I was involved in a Shamanic tradition. We has sweat lodges. Men and women took off all of their clothes and crammed into a small hut bodies touching bodies. I won't go into the details of the ritual but will say that it was absolutely non-sexual. We were not there to have sex, we were there to have healing and do medicine. The sweat lodges were the most intense purifying experiences that I have ever had. You can see then, where it is most difficult for me to understand the mentality that covers up something as innocent as a woman hair for fear that it may some how be provocative when I have danced naked with women and felt nothing but the common bond of our humanity and fraility in this vast creation. I'm not sure what my point is, except that I am feeling a little sad that we must be so separated by our own private worlds. We think the world is one way because we have closed the doors to alternate realities. Our culture tells us, "Don't open that door, it will destroy you." And from their perspecitve they are right, because once you have opened the door/ tasted the fruit/ you cannot go back. You have become larger and you will no longer fit into your cultural slot. Sure, you can pretend, and maybe even convence everybody that you are back, but you will need to sacrifice your internal integrity. You will create a schizm. You cannot go back and you will be alone, an outcast, seeking the comfort of fellow travelers. I am probably only making since to myserf, so I will stop. - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Asim Jalis Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 16:34:39 CDT Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women Interestingly, I read an article in the New York Times, about some of the orthodox Jewish sects near New York City, according to which they run a bus-service to and from the city in which there is a curtain along the aisle with men sitting on one side and women on the other. So the-curtain is used in other communities also. Also amongst the Mormons while the main service is together, the women and the men have separate "lessons" before and after the service. Lessons are much more participatory and so perhaps each group feels less self-conscious amongst members of its own sex. Finally a personal experience. Some time ago I was involved with a group of Muslims that would meet every Friday night to read and study the Quran. A group of rather austere Saudis were running the thing and they insisted on men and women meeting in separate rooms. After they moved to other towns we decided to merge the two groups so people could share ideas across gender-lines. Being of a liberal bent of mind I supported this. However, a strange thing happened when the men and women met together. The experience lost something. Perhaps this was because most of us were singles and this might not happen in older married groups. But in our case we'd end up spending a lot more time talking about superficial things. Also I noticed in my self (but also in others) that my "self" would become larger in these co-ed groups. I would show-off more, I suspect for the benefit of the women. It isn't that talking or greeting is equivalent to sex or can lead to sex but that these interactions sometimes make one just a little bit more self-conscious about oneself, which has a bad effect on the spiritual experience. This might not happen if everyone knows everyone else very well at which point men and women become the same (just people) or perhaps if we are dealing with people who are more mature than I am. Anyway, just my opinion. Asim ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #153 *****************************