From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:10:14 1996
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:45:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com
Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #151
tariqas-digest Saturday, 21 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 151
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:20:56 +0800
Subject: Re: Desire
At 18:08 21/09/96 +0800, you wrote:
as salaamu 'alaikum
I do not know if what I have to say will contribute at all to this
discussion, but I wish to throw my say in:-)
I have been muslim for...abt 1.5 years now, since ramadhan 95; I
have been consciously interested in tasawwuf...for...abt 6 months? I began
when I started with dhikr; it was nothing fancy, it was nothing that I did
in a group, but just something that I trained myself to do; we all have a
tendency I think, to let our mind wander to worries and ...even bad
thoughts, whether of a sexual nature or otherwise, when we are free; in the
beginning, it was oh so hard for me to remember Him instead of the person
who said something bad to me, or the one who did something bad to me, or [
in the days of non Islam,] the guys I had seen whom I had thought cute etc
etc etc...but the training eventually took hold; whenever I realised I was
thinking abt these things, I would force myself to bring it to dhikr; at
that time, just La illaha il Allah. After a while, alHamdulillah, it became
like a screen saver mode that your computer uses; even without my realising
it, whenever my mind was free, I would switch to "la illaha il Allah":-) It
was wonderful; more to the point, I began to lose a large part of desires,
sexual or otherwise. ryan, with referance to this especially I think most
of us can relate in that for those of us who are single, especially in this
day and age, we are constantly being bombarded with sexual enticements; on
TV, in movies, [I have stopped watching restricted movies for this reason,
altho I have ever only actually watched one: Schindler's List:-)]the
smallest thing can act as a trigger; often it is just a longing to be
desired, and loved, but all too soon, it can go off at a tangent...and
before we know it, our nafs is telling us to act on our desire, when it
would be far better to just take some time off and relax, so that we do not
do anyhing we may end up regretting.
But I digress:-) gradually I felt a sense of peace entering me; it
was such a gradual process, I was not even aware of it actively, until one
day I reacted to a situation in a way that I never would have 2 months
ago:-) I was watching, as mentioned by Br Zain, my behaviour, watching
myself; I was watchng whom I was speaking to, on what topic...I was trying
to humble myself...when I offended someone, I tried to humble myself by
apologising no matter how inconsequential the matter...things that might
have been extremely worrisome to me, I now decided "If it is His will, fine,
if not, also fine"...
And of course, the danger with all that is that we sometimes get to
a stage where we fall...I fell, abt two weeks ago, and have yet to get up:-)
somewhere along the way, I got to thinking, however unconsciously, that I
was "good"...not better, not necessarily, but good. I was wrong. So now, I
have to learn to pick myself up again:-) To work again to fight temptations,
to learn all over again, that which has been unlearnt:-) and it is hard...
Sorry for going on and on:-) I did not mean to, I really did not:-)
My apologies:-)
wasalaam.
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
------------------------------
From: frank gaude <frank@sierra.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:51:05 -0700
Subject: RUMI 1391
HOW LONG
can i see myself
chained in this prison
chained in this world
the time has come
to take my good life
in my hands and
gallop to the sublime
finally purified
i'm no more polluted
and from now on
i'll take my quests
directly to God Himself
i was given
at my birth
all the estates and mansions
it will be a heresy
to accept only
a doorkeeper's job
once i alter this
doorkeeper's attitude
once i change the
essence in my mind
happiness will replace misery
now my dear heart
since you and i are all alone
having your midnight message
i'll do exactly
that which you know
once i grow wings
in place of my slow feet
all obstacles will vanish
and i really can fly in
time and space again
ghazal number 1391, translated April 8, 1991, by Nader Khalili
tanzen
------------------------------
From: Zainuddin Ismail <sham@po.pacific.net.sg>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:23:46 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: Re: RUMI 1391
Salam.Excellent,Frank.I am sending it to a friend.
At 06:51 9/21/96 -0700, you wrote:
>HOW LONG
>can i see myself
>chained in this prison
>chained in this world
>
>the time has come
>to take my good life
>in my hands and
>gallop to the sublime
>
>finally purified
>i'm no more polluted
>and from now on
>i'll take my quests
>directly to God Himself
>
>i was given
>at my birth
>all the estates and mansions
>it will be a heresy
>to accept only
>a doorkeeper's job
>
>once i alter this
>doorkeeper's attitude
>once i change the
>essence in my mind
>happiness will replace misery
>
>now my dear heart
>since you and i are all alone
>having your midnight message
>i'll do exactly
>that which you know
>
>once i grow wings
>in place of my slow feet
>all obstacles will vanish
>and i really can fly in
>time and space again
>
>ghazal number 1391, translated April 8, 1991, by Nader Khalili
>
>tanzen
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: MFKimball@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:03:19 -0400
Subject: to greet or not to greet women
Assalamu Alaikum Michael
I feel strongly about this issue of whether to greet women or not to greet
women.
I don't think it is a good idea for us to base our behavior on what other
people will think. As long as you act out of integrity and honesty, what
other people think is their problem not yours. Please greet women, if that
feels natural to you, with confidence and integrity, rather than ignore them
out of paranoia.
I find that it is very uncomfortable for me to be in mosques where men tend
to act as if there are no women in the room. The very sad truth is that most
mosques I have been to have been like this. I can imagine what it must have
felt like for blacks when racism was so prevalent, and they were treated like
non-people. It must have been similar to the Muslim gatherings I have been
to. Even in some Sufi gatherings I have experineced this. When a few of us
were gathering to leave the house where a Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi gathering
took place, the host and his teenage son said goodbye to my husband, but not
me. My gosh, to say goodbye is not a sexual act! I believe we are only
fooling ourselves if we think this is not a form of discrimination against
women.
I recall the Prophet is said to have greeted people with a like greeting or
one better than they had greeted him with.
Best Wishes,
Michelle Kimball
------------------------------
From: Asim Jalis <jalis@math.wisc.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 11:47:00 CDT
Subject: [none]
Are there any sufi orders based around the Madison Wisconsin
area?
------------------------------
From: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 03:58:49 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women
On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 MFKimball@aol.com wrote:
> I find that it is very uncomfortable for me to be in mosques where men tend
> to act as if there are no women in the room. The very sad truth is that most
> mosques I have been to have been like this. I can imagine what it must have
> felt like for blacks when racism was so prevalent, and they were treated like
> non-people. It must have been similar to the Muslim gatherings I have been
> to. Even in some Sufi gatherings I have experineced this. When a few of us
> were gathering to leave the house where a Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi gathering
> took place, the host and his teenage son said goodbye to my husband, but not
> me. My gosh, to say goodbye is not a sexual act! I believe we are only
> fooling ourselves if we think this is not a form of discrimination against
> women.
>
> I recall the Prophet is said to have greeted people with a like greeting or
> one better than they had greeted him with.
Assalamu alaikum, Michelle,
Sometimes this behaviour is cultural.... Allah knows best if it is a form
of discrimination against women - to me, I think it probably depends on the
cultural context. In some cultures, it might be seen as such, in other
cultures, perhaps not, since in those cultures the women perhaps also do
not greet the men, Allah knows best (i.e. it wouldn't just be one way)....
In our Islamic society at university, there was/is always a curtain
separating the women from the men. I felt this might be a form of
discrimination against women, perhaps, since maybe they couldn't see the
speaker etc. When I investigated further, to my surprise, I found out
many Muslim women liked the curtain, since it gave them a feeling of
privacy.
Wassalam,
Fariduddien
------------------------------
From: Steve H Rose <habib@world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Announcing The Garden
Bismillah irrahman irrahim -- in the name of The One, who is mercy and
compassion.
Many of the members of tariqas have been with us for a long time. Others
are new friends. I am hoping, insh'Allah, that some tariqas members will
be interested in joining us in a very exciting project, called The Garden,
described below. Please forward the following announcement, as
appropriate, to relevant discussion lists.
May peace with you, and with us all.
About The Garden
The Garden is a Webring and Discussion List working to transform the
Internet and use it as a tool to help heal the planet. We recognize that
lasting change involves each one of us, and we strive to be more gentle,
more loving, more honest, and more helpful in our interactions on the
Internet. The Garden is based on a dream that the Internet could become a
"garden" of love, peace, beauty, and understanding.
The Garden Discussion Group
The Garden discussion list is open to all people interested in
transforming themselves, the Internet, and using the Internet as a tool to
help heal the planet.
To join, send email to majordomo@world.std.com The subject line should be
left blank. As the body of the message have the following text:
subscribe thegarden
There is also a "digest" version of this list available. Unfortunately,
the digest is not "threaded" -- you will still receive all messages sent
to the list in sequential order, but the messages will be gathered up and
sent to you within the text of one longer email message (each digest is
about 30K long). You may subscribe to either or both versions of this
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with the following text:
subscribe thegarden-digest
To unsubscribe to the discussion list, send the following text:
unsubscribe thegarden
or
unsubscribe thegarden-digest
as appropriate.
If you need assistance, please send email to habib@world.std.com
Looking forward to sharing with you!
Yours,
Steve Habib Rose
To learn more about The Garden, please visit our Webring at
http://www.speakeasy.org/~habib -- or just join our discussion! For more
information about Webrings, see http://www.webring.org
------------------------------
From: Craig Johannsen <johan@Ultranet.ca>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:09:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions
Hi Nur,
You wrote:
> i'm uncertain where this theme started (trying to follow earlier posts)... the post
> referring to Idries Shah possibly? Personally, i have always felt compelled to take
> Idries Shah's statements regarding Sufism's influence upon European Christianity with
> a grain of salt.
Yes, my source was Shah, his book The Sufis.
But the message to which I was replying was Kaffea's statment of interest in joining
a Catholic order.
> The reference to Francis of Assisi supposedly returning to Rome in a patched frock or
> kirqa, which has led some to believe he became a Sufi initiate.... [snip]
Shah mentions a lot of other things, but no sources, so it's not very convincing from
an academic point of view. Here are a few of them (from memory):
1. St. Francis spoke Provencal, the language of the troubadors
2. He was a troubador and poet before starting the Franciscan order
3. Some of his poetry resembles Rumi's
4. He travelled extensively in Spain, where Islam was a major influence and
there were many Sufi orders
5. He travelled to Syria (hmmm. Syriac Christian influence as well as Sufism?)
6. He called his order the "Lesser Bretheren", while at that time the "Greater
Bretheren" was known to be a Sufi order.
7. The caped frock worn by members of the order was identical to that worn
by some Sufi orders in North Africa and Spain (?)
> Since my research in Syrian Christianity is primarily pre-Islam, i do not know whether the
> middle-eastern Christian investiture of a patched frock continued in ...[snip]
Thanks for the info about Syrian Christianity. This is something I know even less
about than Catholicism but would like to know more. Did Syrian Christianity have a big
influence on the ultimate form of the Catholic church?
Have you found any direct connections between Syrian Christianity and what ultimately
became known as Sufism? (my apologies if you have already commented about this in
a previous posting I may have missed -- I don't always have time to read everything)
I find the idea that Sufism predated Islam very appealing, perhaps even an intuitively
obvious truth, yet others in this list (yourself included?) would say that this is nonsense.
Perhaps it's a matter of definition of terms: when I use the term "Sufism", I'm not
referring to any particular institution or group known as Sufis, but, rather, to
a rather substantial and coherent set of practices and knowledge that is the basis
of Sufi groups and institutions, and many other groups that follow the "Path of the Heart."
Well, there's a tautology for you.
Peace and love,
Craig
------------------------------
From: Asim Jalis <jalis@math.wisc.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 16:16:47 CDT
Subject: Re: Desire
Imaan Joshi writes:
> I have been muslim for...abt 1.5 years now, since ramadhan 95;
> I have been consciously interested in tasawwuf...for...abt 6
> months? . . .
These spiritual biographies are always touching to read. I hope
these questions don't sound too intrusive: what were you before
you became a Muslim? Also why did you become a Muslim?
Asim
------------------------------
From: Asim Jalis <jalis@math.wisc.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 16:29:12 CDT
Subject: Re: Desire
> Sorry for going on and on:-) I did not mean to, I really did not:-)
> My apologies:-)
Sorry for responding to this several times :-) I just wanted to say that
you don't need to apologize "for going on and on". These types of posts are
always beautiful whoever posts them because they are so genuine and
sincere. You can smell the fragrance of sincerity in them. Also it is
comforting to know that there are other people whose spiritual lives are
also the same beautiful anarchical chaos.
Finally, I prefer these person-al posts several orders of magnitude more
than posts about abstract, not-real, imaginary, mental-constructs like US
and Iraq and sweeping generalizations about millions of people and postings
filled with anger and/or insecurity.
Asim
------------------------------
From: Steve H Rose <habib@world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:48:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The most beautiful names (11) (fwd)
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:31:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com
To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com
Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Bryan Conn <s001blc@paladin.wright.edu>]
>From habib@world.std.com Wed Sep 18 23:31:04 1996
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Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:16:19 -0400
From: Bryan Conn <s001blc@paladin.wright.edu>
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To: tariqas <tariqas@world.std.com>
Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (11) Al-Mutakabbir
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Assalaamu Alaikum
The following is from "The Most Beautiful Names" compiled by Sheik Tosun
Bayrak, published by Threshold Books - Amana Books.
________________________________________________________________________
Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem
In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful
________________________________________________________________________
Al-Mutakabbir
He is the Greatest, who shows His greatness in everything, on all
occasions. The manifestation of greatness belongs only to Allah. The
creation, whose being or not being depends on the will and the single
order of Allah, does not have the right to assume this name.
Allah al-Mutakabbir is the adversary of the proud man. He will
humiliate him, making him the lowest of the low. Just as the rain that
comes from the skies does not gather on the tops of high mountains,
Allah's blessings and compassion gather in lowly places.
________________________________________________________________________
Peace to All!
bryan
- --
Birdsong brings relief
to my longing.
I am just as ecstatic as they are,
but with nothing to say!
Please, universal soul, practice
some song, or something, through me!
- Rumi via Coleman Barks
------------------------------
From: arsalaan fay <harps@world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:01:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shaytan
Friends
I've seen it written that one does not do salat during the rising or
setting of the sun because the sun rises/sets on the horns of satan.
Often it is useful to view "evil" or "satan" as code words for ego. This
gives a different perspective to the sex at full moon thread, but seems to
shed no light on sun rise.
Can any one illuminate the inner meaning of prohibiting prayer at
sun rise/set.
Allah is kind/kindness
Arsalaan Fay
------------------------------
From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:11:59 EDT
Subject: Re: sex in full moon
> So perhaps
>when a man uses nice words, one might hope that he has good thought
about
>the experience too:-), that it is *more* than just *sex*. A bit naive, I
>know, but...a girl can hope, can't she:-)?
Imaan Shivani Joshi
ahhh, not naive at all! :)
if you asked me (and i know you didn't! :), i'd say that you should not
only hope, you should /expect/ to have communion that is beyond your
wildest dreams-- whole, holy! :)
with love,
carol
------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:09:10 +0800
Subject: Re: sex in full moon
At 19:11 21/09/96 EDT, you wrote:
>> So perhaps
>>when a man uses nice words, one might hope that he has good thought
>about
>>the experience too:-), that it is *more* than just *sex*. A bit naive, I
>>know, but...a girl can hope, can't she:-)?
>Imaan Shivani Joshi
>
>ahhh, not naive at all! :)
>if you asked me (and i know you didn't! :), i'd say that you should not
>only hope, you should /expect/ to have communion that is beyond your
>wildest dreams-- whole, holy! :)
>with love,
>carol
>
kinda hard to have in this day and age tho:-) I speak from indirect
experience, i.e from the experience shard with me by friends...but then
again, many of them were just looking for fun too, so...BTW, I am very
surprised on this list; my impression of men before this was rather
scummy:-) I have had friends, male, who have told me " Offer a guy free sex
with no strings attached, no matter how ugly you are, he will not turn you
down."...see what I mean? Sex, not love:-) and Allah[swt] knows best.
>
>
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:24:07 +0800
Subject: Re: Desire
At 16:16 21/09/96 CDT, you wrote:
>Imaan Joshi writes:
>
>> I have been muslim for...abt 1.5 years now, since ramadhan 95;
>> I have been consciously interested in tasawwuf...for...abt 6
>> months? . . .
>
>These spiritual biographies are always touching to read. I hope
>these questions don't sound too intrusive: what were you before
>you became a Muslim? Also why did you become a Muslim?
> Asim
>
alHamdulillah:-)...I was hindu; nominal; after much searching, I
think, I have come to realise that other religions per se are not bad, but
all have a common thread that to me, links them all back to Islam, but
rather they have deviated so much, some of them, that they practice things
that are really...Hindusim for example, has many beautiful teachings, but
where I came from, there was the caste system; I was fortunate in that I was
from the "highest" caste, the brahmins, so not much discrimination there;
but other things sure were a problem. How to pray what to pray to, men
better than women. Even till today women serve their husbands, the husband
is equivalent to God, or greater...a woman is treated like an untouchable a
few days once a month...these may have all started out as ways to help women
[ somehow] but ...they have degenarated to a stage where I just could not
take it.
why did I become a muslim? wow:-) I had been searching for a way
since I was abt 12[ I am now 23] ...I did believe in God, sort of like
fitrah? but I searched thru hindusim, christianity, buddhism[ a little]
judaism...i did not feel in any of these a sense of belonging, a sense of
being...so around ...at age of 19, i gave up; decided there was no religion
good enuff; the only one i refused to touch was Islam:-) because of the
stereotypes. Then I had a friend, a muslim, whom I had known for three
years; we were very good friends but nothing ever happened because he was
muslim, and I was not; thru him, I learnt slowly, abt Islam...then I became
ill, and had to have surgery; went to India for it, and one very painful
day, decided to go to a masjid located across the road, on the sea...I
remember as I walked there with my cousin, the pain I was feeling; I could
not even stand still; had to sit down whenever we stopped walking; the
moment we entered the courtyard, the pain disappeared.:-) I thot it was my
imagination; so we continued walking. When I enetered the place itself, I
felt...a sense of belonging, like I had never felt before like I never
wanted to feel in a "muslim" place...I guess, Insh'Alah, that was when it
all started, altho I did not give in immediately:-) alHamdulillah. my friend
and I are no longer together/in touch anymore, but I am so grateful to him
for all his help; may he be blessed. He was the only muslim willing to help
thru the bad times, and the one who taught me how to learn basic thing: the
shahada, the salaat, the wudu'...the first time I prayes, he stood at a
distance and i recited out loud, telling him, if I forget, jump in:-) I did
not forget:-) alHamdulillah.
Well, I feel again as if I have gone on too long:-)
But I would like to say this : a friend, who herself treated me very
shabbily when I became muslim and has only really, in the past 6 months or
so accepted me as a muslim, has asked me on at least two occassions whether
my parents are going to convert; everytime I say no, or I dn't know, she
looks away; it is sad that pple cannot exhibit tolerance for other pple's
faiths and beliefs. Sure I wish my parents would become muslim, but
certainly I would not force them. To do so would be to descend to a level
that is not appropriate. And Allah[swt] knows best.
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
------------------------------
From: Imaan Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:24:36 +0800
Subject: Re: Desire
At 16:29 21/09/96 CDT, you wrote:
>> Sorry for going on and on:-) I did not mean to, I really did not:-)
>> My apologies:-)
>
>Sorry for responding to this several times :-) I just wanted to say that
>you don't need to apologize "for going on and on". These types of posts are
>always beautiful whoever posts them because they are so genuine and
>sincere. You can smell the fragrance of sincerity in them. Also it is
>comforting to know that there are other people whose spiritual lives are
>also the same beautiful anarchical chaos.
alHamdulillah:-) shukran:-)
>
>Finally, I prefer these person-al posts several orders of magnitude more
>than posts about abstract, not-real, imaginary, mental-constructs like US
>and Iraq and sweeping generalizations about millions of people and postings
>filled with anger and/or insecurity.
>
>Asim
>
>
Imaan Shivani Joshi
sci30342@leonis.nus.sg
He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad
desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi]
------------------------------
From: MFKimball@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:45:15 -0400
Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women
Fariduddien
I agree with you that "sometimes this behavior is cultural" (of excluding
women). In the mosques I've been to outside of America I did not see this
phenomenon (curtains separating women). I have no idea where it originated,
certainly not in the community of the Prophet.
I know that some women like the "privacy". I would guess that these are
mostly not American women, and that such a set up (curtain separating women)
would not be viewed as a welcoming feature if one wants to be open to the
outside community, rather than just perpetuatiny a specific cultural group in
America.
American women have too long a history of struggling to be seen and heard and
to gain rights (however distorted those may have become) to find appeal in an
exclusionary system.
Best wishes,
MFK
------------------------------
End of tariqas-digest V1 #151
*****************************