From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:26:52 1996
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 06:26:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com
Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com
Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #139


tariqas-digest           Friday, 13 September 1996     Volume 01 : Number 139


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:42:31 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: 63 Earth Years

Assalamu alaikum,

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote:

> Did not Mohammed himself ressurected? What are the hadiths on that.

As far as I know, Muhammad (s.a.w.) was not resurrected.... maybe you are 
thinking about the "ascension" or the "night journey" ? 

Wassalam,

Fariduddien



------------------------------

From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:54:08 +0100
Subject: Loveing thyself

what you see in someone else is often how you see yourself
How you think of someone else is how you think of yourself
The real task, the morning after, is to look in the mirror
And still love thyself.
Kaffea Lalla

------------------------------

From: Zainuddin Ismail <sham@po.pacific.net.sg>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:33:28 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor

AsSalamu'alaikum w.w.
The Hadis /Sunnah are absolutely important as guidance because the Quran is
like the Constitution of Islam and the Hadis / Sunnah the supplementary .The
Quran commands us to pray and the example of the Prophet in how to carry out
the prayers is essential as guidance.Such sunnah of the Prophet which was
acted out in every generation of Muslims from the time of the Prophet and
further recorded is itself unassailable.
The Prophet said " There will be narrators," he is reported to have said , "
reporting Hadis from me, so judge by the Quran ; if a report agrees with the
Quran , accept it, otherwise reject it.
"My sayings do not abrogate the word of Allah, but the word of Allah can
abrogate my saying " (Mishkat al Masabih)
"I am no more than a human being,when I order you anything respecting
religion receive it and when I order anything about the affairs of the world
, I am no more than a man"
(Mishkat Masabih)

A report was not accepted under any of the following circumsances
1.If it was opposed to recognised historical facts.
2.If the reporter was Shi'a and the hadith was of the nature of an
accusation against the Companions of the Holy Prophet or if the reporter was
a Khariji and the hadith was of the nature of an accusation against a member
of the Prophet's famlly.If however such a report was corroborated by
independent testimony ,it was accepted.
3.If it was of such a nature that to know it and act upon it was incumbent
upon all and it was reported by a single man.
4.If the time and the circumstances of its narration contained evidence of
its forgery
5 If it was against reason or against the plain teachings of Islam
6 If it mentioned an incident which had it happened would have been known to
and reported by large numbers , while as a matter of fact that incident was
not reported by any one except the particular reporter
7 If it contained threatenings of heavy punishment  for ordinary sins or
promises of mighty reward for slight good deeds.
8 If it contained threatenings of heavy punishment  for ordinary sins or
promises of mighty reward for slight good deeds.
9 If it spoke of the reward of prophets and messengers to the doer of good.
10 If the narrator confessed that he fabricated the report.

( Shah Abdul Azis in Ujala Nafi'a)

Alfred Guillaume points out "Inquiries were made as to the character of the
narrators, whether they were morally and religiously satisfactory, whether
they were tainted with heretical doctrines, whether they had a reputation
for truthfulness and had the ability  to transmit what they had themselves
heard.Finally it was necessary that they should be competent witnesses whose
testimony would be accepted in a court of civil law" 

At 19:59 9/12/96 +0800, you wrote:
>Dearest Michael Moore,Salamu 'alaikum w.w
>
>Inspiration comes in a few forms
>1)Firstly we have the Immutable Quran
>2)Then we have the Sayings of the Prophet which are not the revelation of
>Allah brought down to the Prophet s.a.w.This is part of the Sunnah recorded
>in Hadis .Sunnah also includes a fi'l an action or practice of his or a
>taqrir -his silent approval of the action of practice of another.
>3)Then in between the Quran and the Hadis are words called Hadis Qudsi for
>example" My earth and my heavens do not contain me but what contains me is
>the heart of a believer"
>Hadis Qudsi is the Message of Allah but in the words of the Prophet whereas
>the Quran is the Message of Allah and in words chosen by Allah s.w.t.
>Whereas every single part of the Quran to the very last dot is perfectly
>authenntic and Allah in the Quran promises that He will protect the Quran
>which is the testimony of history itself ,Hadis has different levels of
>authenticity from those which are mutawatir which are of the highest
>authenticity and to the daif which are weak hadis but which are not
>necessarily false.
>Ilal Liqq.I'll be back Insha'Allah.
>
>At 23:58 9/11/96 +0800, you wrote:
>>Assalamu 'alaikum w.w.
>>Some twenty years ago or more I used to spend a lot of time at the local
>>library reading books written mostly by Christian missionaries against
>>Islam.Although I could not instinctively accept the terrible slanders
>>against the Prophet,I had to spend years to resolve the issues.And in the
>>process I had to really do deep research on my own on the Life of the
>>Prophet and in the process failed my LLB examinations which were far far
>>less interesting.Some of the misunderstandings are still cropping up and
>>although I have dealth with them before , the detailed answers have to be
>>researched again and again for the benefit of others.
>>To understand the Life of the Prophet in detail I would recommend the
>>reading of Shibli Numani's Seeratun Nabi which has been translated by Fazlur
>>Rahman and by the Pakistan Historical Society.Shibli Numani was not only the
>>Shamsul Ulama or the Sun among the Religious Scholars he was also a
>>historian.In it are also enumerated principles of verification of Hadis.
>>Please note that apart from the Quran there is not one book which does not
>>contain inaccuracies and one has to use reason , logic , history and the
>>criterion of the Quran as the yardstick when going through the huge corpus
>>of hadis literature.Ayesha said that "his morals are the Quran" but even
>>here scholarship is needed.
>>Sometimes even a companion would misunderstand what the Prophet said.Abu
>>Huraira r.a
>>said that the Prophet s.a.w. said that three things may be affected by bad
>>luck: a woman, a house and a horse.Yet Ayesha quoted the very opposite: The
>>Prophet said that the Jews are alienated from spiritual grace for believing
>>that bad luck can be with 3 things : a woman, a house and a horse.She said
>>that Abu Huraira came into the house when the Prophet had already some some
>>words and he missed the first part of the saying.
>>Sometimes it can really be very trickly as illustrated by my understanding
>>of "It is more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to
>>enter into the eye of a needle" Michael Moore gave another reason for
>>believing in the correctness of the tradition which view I have also heard
>>before.
>>In every area of religion there is gross misunderstanding and this should be
>>understand because all the forces of evil are arrayed ( or is it arraigned)
>>against any Prophet.
>>"Punishment for Apostasy in Islam " is a classic of a research work on gross
>>misunderstanding of the Prophet's decision.It was written by a former Chief
>>Justice of Pakistan S.A.Rahman.Hammudah Abdalati's Family Structure of Islam
>>removes other types of misunderstanding .
>>I have to go now although I have to continue sometime later.....
>>At 10:31 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Zainuddin Ismail wrote:
>>>-snip-
>>>> The hadis quoted by Moore is extracted from a book of unedited
hadis.This is
>>>> the danger .Always revert to the unassailable , incontrovertible Quran when
>>>> doubts cross your mind.
>>>
>>>Does not the Quran say that every word from the Prophet's lips are
>>>Quran?
>>>If so, then we need to know what he said.
>>>
>>>> I have more to say on this subject. Brother Moore, look into your heart and
>>>> question why you brought up this clearly false hadis 
>>>
>>>Why are you questioning my motives? Perhaps we both need to do some
>>>looking.
>>>
>>>  Since I took shahada less than a year ago,
>>>I am still very much learning. I am not a scholar by any means. I only
>>>wish to know the external arguments used against ISLAM and how to
>>>respond
>>>to them. There are those who will question me and I want to know the
>>>best way to respond. I don't believe that "Look into your heart" is
>>>sufficient to combat the enemies of Islam. If "look into your heart"
>>>was good enough, then the Prophet would have just said "look into your
>>>heart, you don't need a Quran and hadiths". 
>>>
>>>
>>>> which no Muslim scholar
>>>> worth his salt qould accept.Remember we are dealing with someone whom many
>>>> believe to be the Beloved of God.
>>>
>>>Yes, and those same people see nothing wrong with the Prophet's actions
>>>as
>>>described in these false hadiths. The fact that he is the Beloved of
>>>Allah
>>>should be all the more reason why I would want to defend him against
>>>these false hadiths.
>>> 
>>>> I pray with all other believers here, that Allah our Lord,
>>>> Cherisher,Nourisher and Sustainer will put solace into your wounded
>>heart.Salam.
>>>>
>>>Thank you, I will take all the prayers I can get. 
>>> 
>>>YOU are seeing a wounded heart, so I will pray for you too. 
>>>
>>>Salaams
>>>-- 
>>>Michael J. Moore
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Michael J. Moore" <mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:18:32 -0700
Subject: Biographical stuff

Hello,
First, Thanks Zainuddin for talking about ways to tell if hadiths
are acceptable. I hope someday to find my way to the same
vision of the Prophet(saws) that you have. But for now
it is back to basics for me. 

I am still working on my salaat. My study is from the 
'KITABUS-SALAAT' Published by the Young Men's Muslim 
Association. I believe that this is the Hanafi School.
It is very complicated and consists of about 90 pages.
Right now I am in the process of memorizing dua-e qunoot
which is required for the witr prayer of isha. Once
memorized, I will have enough suras and duas to make
valid salaat for the whole day. But even after that,
I feel that I must memorize at least a few more suras
just to add variety because it is Makrooh (reprehensible)
to fix ones salaat. 

There are so many interesting little rules for example:
  It is Waajib to recite both Surah Fatiha plus a Surah
  or some verses of the Quaran in every raka't of Witr,
  Sunnat and Nafl Salaat.


Salaams,
- -- 
Michael J. Moore

------------------------------

From: maarof <maarof@pc.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:07:34 -0700
Subject: TARIQAS Shath

Dear friends on the path to Love,

A book I'm reading "Words of ecstasy in sufism" by Carl W Ernest.
Things that we said or posted to this list sometimes I think was
misunderstood by others. This reminds me of the sayings by sufi masters 
of the past, like Hallaj, whose sayings and statements create 
controversies and even killings, because the listeners do not really 
LISTEN to other, but only listen to what they wanted to listen.

A brother or a sister in list might said something very BEAUTIFUL, but 
because of the failure to understand the "ecstasy" when the words were 
said, those words were construed as INFIDEL as what happened to Hallaj 
and others.

salam
maarof
ps Thanks for the loving personal post.

------------------------------

From: maarof <maarof@pc.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:21:05 -0700
Subject: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Fred Rice wrote:
> 
> Assalamu alaikum,
> 
> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote:
> 
> > Did not Mohammed himself ressurected? What are the hadiths on that.
> 
> As far as I know, Muhammad (s.a.w.) was not resurrected.... maybe you are
> thinking about the "ascension" or the "night journey" ?
> 
> Wassalam,
> 
> Fariduddien

There's another different issue here about Muhammad (saw) (in one's 
dream). The Prophet said (recorded in hadith) that whoever dreams of 
meeting him (Muhammad), then that dream is true.

Now, can that meeting in dream considered "hadith", i.e sayings and deeds 
of the Prophet. If this the case, then "hadith" as we know it is not 
limited but keep on compiling, because there are people meeting the 
Prophet (saw) in dream even in present day.


maarof

------------------------------

From: maarof <maarof@pc.jaring.my>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 02:53:46 -0700
Subject: HALLAJ devotion in prayer

Ibn Fatik came to visit Hallaj, who was reciting the Quran
at full length. When Hallaj has finished, he returned to Ibn Fatik,
laughing and said, "Don't you see that I pray to try to please
Him? But he who thinks that he has pleased Him has put a price on His
pleasure". Then Hallaj laughed again, and recited these verses:

When a youth's ardent love reaches perfection,
  and ecstasy makes him to forego union,
Then he attests in truth what love attests to him --
  the prayer of lovers is just infidelity

note: Absorption in ritual prayer is attachment to intermediaries
that obscure the realities of spirit; Hallaj here blames himself for 
placing too much importance on the EFFECT OF PRAYER, as the youth in the 
poem in the thought of his own love -- all deviation from the Beloved is 
infidelity.


- --from Words of Esctasy in Sufism (C W Ernest)

------------------------------

From: Craig Johannsen <johan@Ultranet.ca>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:55:03 -0700
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Hi Maarof,

You wrote:
> .... there are people meeting the
> Prophet (saw) in dream even in present day.

It would be interesting to hear what their experience was,
if you know anyone personally who has had such a dream
or if they have written about it.

Wa salaam,
Craig

------------------------------

From: Zainuddin Ismail <sham@po.pacific.net.sg>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:13:36 +0800 (SGT)
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Salamu 'alaikum w.w.
Prophethood (Nabuwwah) has come to an end and what remains (after Muhammad
)is mubashirah (true visions) which amounts to one-fortieth of
prophecy.According to Ibn Arabi, if one sees Muhammad in a dream and he is
as described in the hadis then it is true that one has seen him.However what
he says cannot be accepted as hadis.Hadis ended when Prophet Muhammad
died.At the most it is a personal message for one.Salam again.Please read
the famous book on Dreams by Ibn Seerin .It is available in large Islamic
bookshops.Dreams are mentioned five times in the Quran.As personal guidance
they are significant.But there are strict rules.The book is very helpful .

At 02:21 9/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Rice wrote:
>> 
>> Assalamu alaikum,
>> 
>> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote:
>> 
>> > Did not Mohammed himself ressurected? What are the hadiths on that.
>> 
>> As far as I know, Muhammad (s.a.w.) was not resurrected.... maybe you are
>> thinking about the "ascension" or the "night journey" ?
>> 
>> Wassalam,
>> 
>> Fariduddien
>
>There's another different issue here about Muhammad (saw) (in one's 
>dream). The Prophet said (recorded in hadith) that whoever dreams of 
>meeting him (Muhammad), then that dream is true.
>
>Now, can that meeting in dream considered "hadith", i.e sayings and deeds 
>of the Prophet. If this the case, then "hadith" as we know it is not 
>limited but keep on compiling, because there are people meeting the 
>Prophet (saw) in dream even in present day.
>
>
>maarof
>


------------------------------

From: Imaan Shivani Joshi <sci30342@leonis.nus.sg>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:12:50 +0800 (SST)
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

> 
> Hi Maarof,
> 
> You wrote:
> > .... there are people meeting the
> > Prophet (saw) in dream even in present day.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear what their experience was,
> if you know anyone personally who has had such a dream
> or if they have written about it.
> 
as salaamu 'alaikum
	It is reported that the prophet Muhammad, [saw] said that if one
of us should dream of him, it would be a good sign etc, because even
though satan can imitate others, he can't imitate the prophet[saw]; the
problem arises however, because we do not know what he looks like; sure,
from some vague descriptions, we know that he was of medium height, that
he had a beard, that he was handsome..but these are generally changing
perceptions; what may be handsome then may not be so now...so I for one,
would take this with a pinch of salt we do not know what he looks like,
and hence...and there are many sufi stories, whereby even sufis, were
deceived by satsn posturing as Allah[swt][ bright light etc]...so how can
we be sure? It is my honest opinion that perhaps that was meant for those
pple who had actually lives at the time when they were able to see him.
wasalaam.

------------------------------

From: yemimt@singnet.com.sg (Cresent Clinic & Surgery -Dr. M. Tahir)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:54:37 +0800 (SST)
Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor

Assalamu 'alaikum w.w.

Like Zainuddin, I also had read a lot of  books against Islam written by
Christians including Orientalists.  I realised with sadness that there is a
massive propaganda against Islam and against the Prophet, much more so than
against the other major religions like Hinduism or Budhism.

It seems to me such a great pity, given that there is so much in common
between the two religions.  In fact Muslims believe that there is no
distinction between the religions preached by the various prophets from time
to time, since they were all sent by Allah.

Whatever way one wants to interpret the word Parakletos in the new
testament, the fact remains that the last Prophet, is responsible for the
fact that 1.4 billion people on this earth, as Muslims, are glorifying the
name of Jesus.  Like Jesus,the Prophet came to confirm and reiterate the
teachings of the prophets before him.

Muslims are sometimes potrayed as backward and barbaric with regard to
punishment for crimes,eg the gruesome punishments in the Hudud laws, for
theft or adultary for instance. In the New Testamet, Jesus in a similar
vein, states in his Sermon on the Mount, that if your hand causes you to
sin, cut it off; if your eye ... pluck it out; better this than that your
whole body be cast into the fire.   Before Zainudin jumps on me, let me
hasten to add that I believe that the threat of punishments in the Hudud
laws are meant more as (or solely as) a deterrant than anything else. The
burden of proof on the part of the accusers are so much more than in English
law.  For adultery, if I am not mistaken, four adult and trustworthy
witnessess are required to actually witness the act before a person can be
accused of adultery, a practically impossible condition.  

Similarly  Jesus Christ was, I believe,just emphasizing the gravity of the
offences of stealing and fornication etc, rather than expecting his
followers to literally cut off their hands or pluck out their eyes.

My initial bitterness towards all the criticism against Islam is being
mellowed considerably, Alhamdulillah, after reading all the diferent views
expressed in Tariqas.  I realise that each one of us sincerely wishes to
know God, and "the ways to God are as many as the breaths of mankind"

M Tahir

Zainuddin Ismail wrote
>Some twenty years ago or more I used to spend a lot of time at the local
>library reading books written mostly by Christian missionaries against
>Islam.Although I could not instinctively accept the terrible slanders
>against the Prophet,I had to spend years to resolve the issues.

>In every area of religion there is gross misunderstanding and this should be
>understand because all the forces of evil are arrayed ( or is it arraigned)
>against any Prophet.


------------------------------

From: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:49:00 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Assalamu alaikum,

On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, maarof wrote:

> There's another different issue here about Muhammad (saw) (in one's 
> dream). The Prophet said (recorded in hadith) that whoever dreams of 
> meeting him (Muhammad), then that dream is true.
> 
> Now, can that meeting in dream considered "hadith", i.e sayings and deeds 
> of the Prophet. If this the case, then "hadith" as we know it is not 
> limited but keep on compiling, because there are people meeting the 
> Prophet (saw) in dream even in present day.

I know about the hadith you are referring to, that if you see the Prophet 
(s.a.w.) in a dream, then that is true - Shaytan cannot take his image.

However, I think such a dream would be different from hadith, because 
hadiths are in general teachings for everyone, while if you see a dream 
with the Prophet (s.), it probably pertains only to you.  

I once met an Australian woman who was in her 60s or so.  She had had a 
recurring dream over about 10 years where she kept seeing Prophet 
Muhammad (s.a.w.).  Eventually, she became a Muslim herself.


Wassalam,

Fariduddien


------------------------------

From: Saint Download <dances@cruzio.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:46:44 -0800
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Yes I did shortly after joining the Nimatullahi Sufi Order. Baraq was in
the dream to.

What does it mean dreaming of Him?

James



------------------------------

From: Asim Jalis <jalis@math.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 23:04:38 CDT
Subject: Desire

What is the cure for sexual desire?

Asim

------------------------------

From: Fred Rice <darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:33:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote:

> Yes I did shortly after joining the Nimatullahi Sufi Order. Baraq was in
> the dream to.
> 
> What does it mean dreaming of Him?

Assalamu alaikum, James,

In general, regarding your dreams, it is best to consult your Shaykh....
to my understanding, if someone gives you a wrong interpretation of
your dream, it can cause more harm than good, so it is best, to my
understanding, to tell your dreams only to those who know how to 
understand and interpret them for you.

Wassalam,

Fariduddien


------------------------------

From: Dr Syed Rashid Ali <rasyed@emirates.net.ae>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:09:23 +0400
Subject: Re: TARIQAS Muhammad in Dream

Fred Rice wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote:
> 
> > Yes I did shortly after joining the Nimatullahi Sufi Order. Baraq was in
> > the dream to.
> >
> > What does it mean dreaming of Him?
> 
> Assalamu alaikum, James,
> 
> In general, regarding your dreams, it is best to consult your Shaykh....
> to my understanding, if someone gives you a wrong interpretation of
> your dream, it can cause more harm than good, so it is best, to my
> understanding, to tell your dreams only to those who know how to
> understand and interpret them for you.
> 
> Wassalam,
> 
> Fariduddien

Dear Br/Sisters
Assalamo alaikum

There are certain priciples to be followed regarding dreams.

1) It should be mentioned to someone knowledgable, a well wisher and truthful person, 
preferably one's Shaikh, as Br Farid has pointed out. According to a Hadith
of Holy prophet SAAW, the interpretation of dream is suspended untill someone gives
an intrepetation; then whatever the interpretation has been given, usually the 
events take that course. Hence the need for a knowledgable person and a well wisher.

2) When you are relating it for the first time, it should be after the sunrise and 
before the sunset.

3) If you wake up due to a bad dream, according to the Hadith, turn your side recite 
La hawla wala quoowata illa billah al-'ali ul 'azeem, spit three times over your 
left shoulder, DO NOT RELATE IT TO ANYONE and the Holy Prophet SAAW reassured us 
that no harm will come from it InshaAllah.

I hope this will help.

Wassalam

Rashid
- -- 
****************************************************************************
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                  YOUR SON & ALL MANKIND."(Sahih Bukhari)
***************************************************************************

                   AHMADIYYA/QADIANI MOVEMENT IN ISLAM
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Find out the facts.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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****************************************************************************
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                              and many more....
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**************************************************************************


------------------------------

End of tariqas-digest V1 #139
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