From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:24:49 1996 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:49:12 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #137 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 11 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 137 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:12:00 EDT Subject: Re: 63 Earth Years Hello, tanzen! >Well, these are my beliefs, maarof, backed-up by intuition. Jesus >didn't die on the cross, lived to be an "older" man, to the age of 63 by my >"reckoning", the same age accepted for that of Muhammad's age at >physical death, the same age that I was when the inspiration came to >me. Did the inspiration simply 'come to you', or did you seek it? :) If so, why? hmmm... did any of the cross stuff happen? Was Jesus on the cross at all? What's the story? :) Maybe that's up to me to intuit if i need to know? :) Isn't the age of 63 rather old for that time/place? >Through spirit and mind all the past is at hand... a human consists of >many levels of consciousness (many mansions in Creator's house)... >within the subconscious mind (instinctive mind) there lodges all the >past experiences of the soul, and individual soul is a "fragment" of >The Soul (Allah, Creator). I believe.... now, how to KNOW? (i think i know how you will answer this... ) >maarof, there are more things in heaven and earth than can be put into >words. tanzen! stop that! <> >Understand, know High Self (intuition, heart) as aspect of inner understand. okay. how? >planes, >collective High Selves as Spirit of Guidance, and then "see" evolution >at work, all under laws laid down by Allah (Absolute) as part of the >create, as part of the universe. > >al-Hamdu'lillah > >Now, let's talk about poetry, divinity, <> "Just believe that we are children of Light. Once you truly believe this, you definately cannot serve only yourself." -- Swami AmarJyoti much love to all! carol ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:55:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Re. love thy neighbor A "rich man," is someone who thinks he knows everything, rich in thought, i.e. "the meek shall inherit the earth." Much love, Ellen On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > This reminds me about the reported or misreported saying of Jesus in the > Bible that it would be as difficult for a rich man to enter heaven as a > camel to go through the eye of the needle.Actually from what I learn from > Muhammad Asad's Tafsir this should actually be "It is as difficult for a > rich man to enter heaven as a rope to enter into the eye of a needle" In the > Arabic jamal means camel and jummal means rope.Probably the same thing > happened to the language which Jesus alaihisalam used. > At 08:34 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Brother Zainuddin wrote: > > > >> It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has > thou forsaken > >> me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to have > complained > >> against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims dispute , he would > have > >> said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" > > > >For me this has been one of the most confusing sayings of Jesus to find > meaning in. I learned from an Indian scholar friend and Sufi, who was doing > research with a Moroccan rabbi, Dahan Levi, that the Hebrew *Eli, Eli (or > Elo-i) lama sabachthani* which has been translated as *Lord/Father, why has > thou foresaken me?* (a reference to Psalm 22) if read as *lamah shavahhtani* > would mean *God/Lord, how thou has glorified me?* Or, if it was *limah* > instead of *lamah* then it would be *has not foresaken me* Can any of the > sisters or brothers on the list who know Hebrew confirm these renderings? > Sorry, my spellings may be off. > > > >Blessings, > > > >Nur > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:54:33 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Yunus Emre Salam.Dear Ibrahim hope you will like this poem which is from Yunus Emre.At 21:57 9/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >So what can I tell you? You cannot become a dervish. >A dervish needs a wounded heart and eyes full of tears. >He needs to be as easy going as a sheep. >You can't be a dervish. >He must be without hands when someone hits him. >He must be tongueless when cursed. >A dervish needs to be without any desire. >You can't be a dervish. >Dervishood tells me, you cannot become a dervish >So what can I tell you? You cannot become a dervish. >A dervish needs a wounded heart and eyes full of tears. >He needs to be as easy going as a sheep. >You can't be a dervish. >He must be without hands when someone hits him. >He must be tongueless when cursed. >A dervish needs to be without any desire. >You can't be a dervish. >A dervish needs to be without any desire. >You can't be a dervish. >You make a lot of sounds with your tongue, meaningful things. >You get angry about this and that. >You can't be a dervish >If it were all right to be angry on this path, >Muhammad himself would have gotten angry. >Because of your anger, you can't be a dervish. >Unless you find a real path, unless you find a guide, >unless Truth grants you your portion, >you can't be a dervish >Therefore, dervish Yunus, come, >dive into the ocean now and then. >Unless you dive in the ocean, you cannot be a dervish > >The drink sent down from Truth, >we drank it, glory be to God. >And we sailed over the Ocean of Power, >glory be to God. >Beyond those hills and oak woods, >beyond those vineyards and gardens, >we passed in health and joy, glory be to God. >We were dry, but we moistened, >We grew wings and became birds, >we married one another and flew, >glory be to God. >To whatever lands we came, >in whatever hearts, in all humanity, >we planted the meanings Taptuk taught us, >glory be to God. >Come here, let's make peace, >let's not be strangers to one another. >We have saddled the horse >and trained it, glory be to God. >We came down to the valley for winter, >we did some good and some bad things. >Now it's spring and we'll return, glory be to God. >We became servants at Taptuk's door. >Poor Yunus, raw and tasteless, >finally got cooked, glory be to God. >We became a trickle that grew into a river. >We took flight and dove into the sea, >and then we overflowed, glory be to God. >Yunus Emre > > ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:31:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor Zainuddin Ismail wrote: - -snip- > The hadis quoted by Moore is extracted from a book of unedited hadis.This is > the danger .Always revert to the unassailable , incontrovertible Quran when > doubts cross your mind. Does not the Quran say that every word from the Prophet's lips are Quran? If so, then we need to know what he said. > I have more to say on this subject. Brother Moore, look into your heart and > question why you brought up this clearly false hadis Why are you questioning my motives? Perhaps we both need to do some looking. Since I took shahada less than a year ago, I am still very much learning. I am not a scholar by any means. I only wish to know the external arguments used against ISLAM and how to respond to them. There are those who will question me and I want to know the best way to respond. I don't believe that "Look into your heart" is sufficient to combat the enemies of Islam. If "look into your heart" was good enough, then the Prophet would have just said "look into your heart, you don't need a Quran and hadiths". > which no Muslim scholar > worth his salt qould accept.Remember we are dealing with someone whom many > believe to be the Beloved of God. Yes, and those same people see nothing wrong with the Prophet's actions as described in these false hadiths. The fact that he is the Beloved of Allah should be all the more reason why I would want to defend him against these false hadiths. > I pray with all other believers here, that Allah our Lord, > Cherisher,Nourisher and Sustainer will put solace into your wounded heart.Salam. > Thank you, I will take all the prayers I can get. YOU are seeing a wounded heart, so I will pray for you too. Salaams - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:56:28 -0700 Subject: Re: caffeine I will be quitting caffeine again this year in preparation for the fast. Last year it was difficult for me because without my caffeine supply I get headaches. This is because I am addicted. Inshalla after comming fast, I will not get started on caffeine again! This is a terrible curse for me and a reminder of just how weak I am. I have found that salaat helps. I feel more alert after salaat and so feel a reduced need for caffeine. I am not attributing anything magical to salaat (nor am I denying it) but just placing your head upside-down will have the effect of creating alertness. The biological effect is called vestibular stimulation. The technique of lowering the head is used on children with 'attention deficit disorder' to aid in their concentration ability. - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:00:55 +0800 Subject: Re: induction and deduction in studying a hadith asha wrote: >>>> I do not know enough ....to have an opinion .... but it seems >there will always be things to argue about,<<< > >True enough. My Murshid once said, that if there is something in his teaching >that you disagree with, then just forget it. It is a simple and humble >approach on his part, but a wise approach on my part. Of course, it is not to >close my eyes is evil, but one the whole my inner sense does not tell me the >Quran is evil, so if there is something that goes past me i might spend time >to discover, but no time is needed to argue something like being for or >against the afore mentioned hadith. a sufi (i think... dara shikoh -- son of shahjahan and mumtaz mahal) gave his definition of paradise as "a place without mullah." Maybe, i can add also paradise is also a place without scholars of hadith, since there won't be any need of hadith in paradise. So, I'm faced with a dilemma because I like to read hadith. I find hadith very difficult things to comprehend spiritually. For example, what does Muhammad (saw) meant when he said (in hadith): "God looked like a young man." Now what does this statement imply? 1. state of union with God (Muhammad saw God) 2. Muhammad described God, but his description is not what God is. 3. Without the experience, all I can say is: "I'm ignorant". I hope these words potrayed their intent: to talk about something in a sense of love and not argument. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:48:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Re. love thy neighbor Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > > This reminds me about the reported or misreported saying of Jesus in the > Bible that it would be as difficult for a rich man to enter heaven as a > camel to go through the eye of the needle.Actually from what I learn from > Muhammad Asad's Tafsir this should actually be "It is as difficult for a > rich man to enter heaven as a rope to enter into the eye of a needle" In the > Arabic jamal means camel and jummal means rope.Probably the same thing > happened to the language which Jesus alaihisalam used. Another interesting take on this story is related to Jeruselem (sp?) where there was (still is) a gate on one of the city walls called 'the eye of the needle'. The opening was so narrow that one would first need to take all the bags off of one's camel in order to squeeze through. The implication then is that one must drop his baggage/riches (false beliefs, self pride, false self or all that man has added unto himself) before he can enter the kingdom of heaven. Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:06:19 +0100 Subject: Just plain silly The world needs more evol. evol makes the world go around. evol one another as i have evoled you. evol god with all your dnim, traeh, lous evol is not a four letter word. evol kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:49:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Just plain silly Jacquie Weller wrote: > > The world needs more evol. > evol makes the world go around. > evol one another as i have evoled you. > evol god with all your dnim, traeh, lous > evol is not a four letter word. > evol kaffea lalla nimA! ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:49:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Kara Kush maarof wrote: > > You wrote: > > Just thought a little clarification might be in order on that Kara > >Kush post I put up earlier today. Perhaps not, but to my tired eyes... > > According to Idries Shah (who probably needs no intro on this > >list?), the Story of Kara Kush is taken from real life, people, places, > >and events known to him. I was particularly interested in the way he > >blends reportorial style and content, with modern "adventure" fiction, > >and his more familiar Sufic style. The episode I posted seems very much > >like one of the latter - but who knows? If these things didn't occur in > >"real" life, they might not ring so many bells (allegorical and > >otherwise), when we hear them. > > Please forgive my often muddled, seemingly irrelevant posts. > > > > love, Aaron > > > >iceblink@teleport.COM Public Access User -- Not affiliated with Teleport > >Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-28800, N81) > > > > I particularly like the way you retold about about a group of villagers > trying to take the mighty Russian army with only swords, bows and arrows > and copies of al-Quran. I've seen pictures of such groups, and the most > interesting is an old man (probably posing to the camera) with headband > "la ila ha ilallah" holding a shining sword in the right hand, and a copy > of al-Quran on the left, facing the sun. I've been told there were > many Malaysian and Indonesian volunteers (especially from sufi groups) > fought in Afghanistan. The stories about them is similar to Selempang > Merah (red sash) who used hypnotism and magick to confuse the Russians. such beautiful images. it almost makes war seem a bit romantic. > > The war in Chechnya is quite similar to Afghanistan, but the Chechens > seemed more organised. The Russian army has more tanks but were easily > trapped in battle of Grozny. I think this kind of armed conflict is becoming the norm on planet Earth, and, as you say - how to rebuild? Maybe that is one of the "evolutionary" reasons behind all this destruction; to force individuals, communities, and nations to change. Instead of rebuilding, perhaps building something new is more in order... I don't know. All these "little wars" have such an emotional effect on me that it's easy to fall into emotionalism, rationalism, or senimentality in an attempt to make it more palatable somehow. For example; the Russians in Afganistan would fly over the villages with helicopters, dropping children's toys filled with explosives. The parents of course knew better - but you can't watch every two year old all the time - boom. a child without arms enters the world. With such truly evil behavior, it is easy to fall into the trap of Good vs. Evil. I know that all those soldiers are not evil beings. I know they love their own children. It's almost as if violence is quite literally a disease of some sort. A mass hysteria. I have a hard time taking it in. love, Aaron > > Anyway, it is easy to win in war in Chechnya, but after the destruction > of war, it is very hard to rebuild the country. > > salam > maarof ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:07:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Re. love thy neighbor Gale wrote: > > Brother Zainuddin wrote: > > > It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has thou forsaken > > me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to have complained > > against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims dispute , he would have > > said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" I've always found that moment of despair very true. Jesus, although a Holy Prophet, was still made of the same earth as the rest of us. Many times in life, we may KNOW something to be true, but at the time of crisis, it just doesn't FEEL true to our human senses. I have no trouble believing that Jesus, like all of us, had moments where what he feels differs from what he knows. To me, this reminds me that Apostles are still human, not Gods - no matter how close to Ascension or whatever you want to call it, they may be. The important thing is that in the end, Jesus did say "Thy Will Be Done". love, Aaron ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:04:25 -0700 Subject: Re: 63 Earth Years > > maarof, there are more things in heaven and earth than can be put into > words. "there are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in all your philosophies..." -from "Hamlet" I think. It's one of my favourite lines. Aaron > Now, let's talk about poetry, divinity, > > tanzen ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:01:12 -0700 Subject: love your enemy Craig Johannsen wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > As-salamu alaykum. > > You wrote: > > What follows is MY understand of what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky > > taught about the meaning of 'neighbor' as intended by > > Isa (pbuh) in his command "Love thy neighbor..." > > > > Simply put, our neighbor is the one that is closest to us. > > Now, it seems clear that Isa (pbuh) was NOT concerned with > > physical proximity, so, in what manner is one person close > > to another? It is in a person's 'state' or level of > > consciousness. We are to love people that close to us > > in development; these are our neighbors. > > [snip] > > The G & O meaning of "neighbor" which you related would seem > to contradict what we know about Jesus or Isa (pbuh). One of > the most remarkable things about his life and a central point > of his teaching was his emphasis on showing genuine love and > concern for those who are most downtrodden and hated (e.g., > prostitutes, lepers, thieves, etc.). He taught this by example > as well as by words. Surely, he was showing us by his actions > the true meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself." > On a related note - I just read this last night. >From "Learning How to Learn", by Idries Shah. p.219 "The first illustration we can use is the saying of Jalaluddin Rumi to the effect that "things which are apparently opposed may in reality be working together." "Secondly, if you cast your mind back to the New Testament, where Jesus is credited with saying that you should 'love your enemy', you will see that, from this point of view, you might as well harmonise with someone who opposes you, because this opposition is quite possibly the beginning of friendship, however it may appear on the surface. 'Love your enemy' Therefore, is not to be regarded as a noble sentiment which makes you a better person, especially: but as an injunction which actually describes the deeper dimensions already existing in the relationship." " On the perceptual, as distinct from the superficial level, there is a communication which leads to harmony between nominally opposed people or attitudes. Were this not so, we would never get agreement following disagreement." Food for thought. peace, Aaron ------------------------------ From: malek@icanect.net (JAZ) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:47:12 -0400 Subject: Re: If/Webring >Steve H Rose wrote: >> [snip] >> This is kindof a pre-announcement for something that insh'Allah, I am >> hoping to start shortly called The Garden. It is a "webring" and >> associated discussion list for people interested in transforming the >> Internet into a more peaceful, loving place, and using it as a tool, >> insh'Allah, to help heal the planet. >> [snip] > >I hadn't heard of a web ring before -- what a great idea! A ring >of related web sites that you can walk around and www.webring.org will make >sure that the links all work! They'll need financial support from >those who can manage it. > How curious that I bumped into the webring just last night (actually about 2a.m. when I pulled a near all nighter finishing a proposal). I understood "we bring". It seems like a nice site. I encourage everyone to check it out. - -- Internet Communications of America, Inc. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:26:54 -0700 Subject: RE: curious question - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9F5E.D0F85B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brother Ali, i am wondering whether this is also Ahmad al-Yasavi (d. around 1160), = whose TurkestanYasaviyya silisila is precursor to Hajji Bektash = (Bektashis) and the Ikaniyya silsila? According to Trimingham, it is a = distinct Turkish order of wandering dervishes, as are the qalandars, but = not extremists in their behavior. It also does not appear that the = Yasaviyya-s as a distinct order continued much beyond the 17th century. Nur - ---------- From: niztaev@bgumail.bgu.ac.il[SMTP:niztaev@bgumail.bgu.ac.il] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 1996 11:30 AM To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: curious question Dear frieds, I have a question. Does anybody know about Khodza Ahmad Yassawii (he was a one of the Sufi leaders in Central Asia, before Tamerlan emperia period)? I will very appreciate if someone will send me references about Sufism. Thanking and looking forward to hearing from you. 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All these "little wars" have such an emotional effect on >me that it's easy to fall into emotionalism, rationalism, or >senimentality in an attempt to make it more palatable somehow. > For example; the Russians in Afganistan would fly over the villages >with helicopters, dropping children's toys filled with explosives. The >parents of course knew better - but you can't watch every two year old >all the time - boom. a child without arms enters the world. > With such truly evil behavior, it is easy to fall into the trap of Good >vs. Evil. I know that all those soldiers are not evil beings. I know >they love their own children. It's almost as if violence is quite >literally a disease of some sort. A mass hysteria. > I have a hard time taking it in. > > > love, Aaron yes i like the idea of "building something new" rather that "rebuilding the old thing". but here, we might be trapped into the looking at war as a "good" thing, which it is not. war is a desease of the soul, and a cure is needed. Is love the answer? I think so. salam ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #137 *****************************