From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:24:23 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #135 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 10 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 135 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:37:07 +0800 Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor On Mon, 09 Sep 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: [...] >Dear Zainuddin, >You are not the only person to have this understanding of the prophet. >The problem >I have is in reconciling this view against the hadiths of the prophet. >For >example: > Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794: > > Narrated Anas: > > Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet > and embraced Islam. The climate of > Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered > them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of > charity and to drink, their milk and urine > (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had > recovered from their ailment (became healthy) > they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and > killed the shepherd of the camels and took the > camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in > their pursuit and so they were (caught and) > brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands > and legs should be cut off and that their eyes > should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and > that their cut hands and legs should not be > cauterized, till they die. > > >see http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/hadith/bukhari/082.htm > >I would love nothing more than for you to tell me that every hadith >where >Mohammad(saws) is portrayed as violent and cruel is a lie and that he >never did that. I really have a difficult time seeing love in this >hadith. > >-Michael- > Assalamualaikum Michael, Zainuddin and mothers/fathers of Tariqas, I hope I'm not out of place to discuss the hadith posted from my "far away neighbor" Michael to my "close neighbour" in Singapore, br Zainuddin. The hadith does not contain the sayings of Muhammad (saw) but a report on how he acted and sentenced punishments on a band of thieves. Looking at the hadith, the key words or points that interest me are: 1) It is a hadith compiled by Bukhari. 2) The narrator Anas. IMO, it is most likely Anas narrated this incidence involving the Prophet from memory, years after the incidence has taken place.Who is Anas? How old was he when he witnessed te event at the time of the Prophet? What is the relationshp of Anas and the Prophet, is he a close companion of the Prophet? and so on... 3) A severe drought at the time of the event. Harsher weather than normal. This can explain the camels for charity for the hungry population. 4) Considering all these conditions, is it fair to punish the offenders severely? Well, these are views and opinions from a layman. I look forward to hear explanations from enlightened brothers and sisters in this list. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:40:03 -0400 Subject: Re: If In a message dated 96-09-08 23:55:47 EDT, you write: > I sense differences yes, and emotion and conviction too, and yet >a cautions degree of patient listening. If, just maybe, If we have the >opportunity to trust each other long enough to not swing out in >self-defense, we may find that we really are brothers and sisters, and that >we have more to learn than we have to teach. Do we really realize that we >are pioneers? And If we can learn to work with each other, maybe we can >then turn our attention and sober committment toward our common mother, our >deeply endangered planet that we call Earth. John. > > may it be, respecting differences and still able to help our world together. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 06:55:12 +0800 Subject: 63 Earth Years You wrote: >> [Muhammed] whose deeds not for one or two >> years but for 63 years was a testimony of an Ocean of Divine Love. Like his >> brother Prophet Jesus who came several hundred years ago, he was a >> manifestation of Divine Love. It is the search for this vacuum of not knowing >> Divine Love which is the unconscious drive behind all human beings. > >Was wondering, the 63 years, is that the earthly life span of Muhammad? > >I was compelled to determine the age of Jesus' at his death about a year >ago and used High Self (intuition, heart) as a guide to obtaining the >information. The answer: 63 earth years. Now I took that at face value >until I realized that was my present age. Then you come with that same >age for Muhammad! Wow, do we believe in fate or not? > >We are all manifestations of divine love! Since all is God how can there >be something that is not divine? > Hello tanzen, can you explain further how you get the age 63 for Jesus (as)? Muhammad's age of 63 years is the common accpeted figure by Muslims. The image of Jesus as about 40 year old man on the cross, somehow changed when you give the figure of 63. salam, maarof ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:00:00 Subject: Re: caffeine as salamu 'alaykum- Here are some textual refs. about it and its associates: 1) "Coffee is a corrective for dysentery, relieves thirst, and is said to produce wisdom. It should be used sparingly" Shaykh Hakim Muinuddin Chishti 'The Book of Sufi Healing' p.57. 2) "Just as any beverage that intoxicates when taken in large quanities is also unlawful (haram) in small quantities" (speaking of non-alcoholic beverages) al-Misri "Reliance of the Traveller" p.618. 3) "The best advice to be given to the consumers is to use herbs as subsitutes of coffee and tea" A.H. Sakr "A Muslim Guide to Food Ingredients" p. 97. 4) According to Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmad ("A Comprehensive List of Halal Food Products in Us Supermarkets") coffee and tea are halal (pp.34-35). It would seem that we need to apply ijtihad to our own situations (?)- Wa as salaam. Erik. ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 16:03:19 -0700 Subject: G. & O.'s Neighbor Craig Johannsen wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > You wrote: > > Who is our neighbor. Surely not everybody, otherwise Isa > > would have said "Love everybody". Gurdjieff and Ouspensky > > had some interesting things to say about who your neighbor is, > > and what it means to 'love you neighbor'. > > If you would post what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky had to say about > this, I would really appreciate it. snip- > > Regards, > Craig What follows is MY understand of what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky taught about the meaning of 'neighbor' as intended by Isa (pbuh) in his command "Love thy neighbor..." Simply put, our neighbor is the one that is closest to us. Now, it seems clear that Isa (pbuh) was NOT concerned with physical proximity, so, in what manner is one person close to another? It is in a person's 'state' or level of consciousness. We are to love people that close to us in development; these are our neighbors. But here, I have taken one small teaching out of context. If you are not familiar with the teachings of G. & O. then you will get the wrong meaning. For those who do know the work I will remind you about 'being able to do' and being asleep. Isa was directing his statement only to people who are able to 'do'. So, he is not telling thugs to love thugs. He is telling people who have a certain level of development to love others at that level. Simultaneously he is setting an impossible task for those people who have not acheived this level. They will see by honest observation that they are not able to 'Love thy neighbor...'. There next task will be to ask themselves, "What is required to become the kind of person that can Love his neighbor." Now, I wish I could recall my Bible better, but if memory serves, Isa had given his command 'Love thy neighbor as thy self' in response to Jews (or maybe just some people) who were asking how they could earn their way into heaven. His answer was meaningful to one level of people but to another level he was saying 'lift your self up by your boot straps'. He was setting an impossible task! He was illustrating that they were not people who could 'do'. If they can not 'do', then how can they be saved? The answer was REPENT. Metanoia or 'change of mind'. But this was NOTt any kind of trivial change of mind like "Gee, I change my mind, I guess I won't go to the movie today." No, this was a total restructuring of the ones psychic world. A restructuring of the way that impressions fall on the mental and emotional centers. The ability accept or reject impression at will rather than mechanically sucking in any kind of poisonious impression that come along. And finally the ability to transmute impressions (digest impressions) to create a higher energy which I won't go into here. Inshallah I have not done too much damage to the profound teaching G. & O. here. If this in any way sounds like rubbish, I guarantee that it is only because of my extremely deficient presentation of these materials. Cheers - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:24:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Righteous in hell Greetings: It is astandard in some hassidic texts that the tzaddik gamur, the wholly completed righteous can descend into hell to redeem some of the sparks of holiness that are trapped therein-- as this is one of the paramount activities of someone of this rank. This is not recommended for the majority of the righteous who are warned not to undertake this task as it is most dangerous and hazardous to one' spiritual life. This is unusually approapriate for consideration at this time of year during the forty days of repentence culminating in yom kippurim - the day of atonement or as some prefer at- one- ment. Raqib > >to all, >I have found a reference to the Qur'an, of a verse describing the righteous >in hell, and it is understood to suggest that the righteous are willing to go >even into the worst of situations in acting from great tenderness, love, and >compassion. >Does anyone know the verse(s) that this might be about? >thank you. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > > - -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:11:42 +0800 Subject: Re: Righteous in hell On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: >to all, >I have found a reference to the Qur'an, of a verse describing the righteous >in hell, and it is understood to suggest that the righteous are willing to go >even into the worst of situations in acting from great tenderness, love, and >compassion. >Does anyone know the verse(s) that this might be about? >thank you. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > Hello Jinavamsa Something in my memory reminds me of words such as "this WORLD (Earth) is HELL for the BELEIVERS". I can't remember whether is is from al-Quran or hadith. But I thought of it mostly from the point of Muslims facing "hardship" and "patience" to do one's duty such as salat, fasting, charity, pilgrimage etc. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 18:30:04 -0700 Subject: Re: G. & O.'s Neighbor Hi Michael, As-salamu alaykum. You wrote: > What follows is MY understand of what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky > taught about the meaning of 'neighbor' as intended by > Isa (pbuh) in his command "Love thy neighbor..." > > Simply put, our neighbor is the one that is closest to us. > Now, it seems clear that Isa (pbuh) was NOT concerned with > physical proximity, so, in what manner is one person close > to another? It is in a person's 'state' or level of > consciousness. We are to love people that close to us > in development; these are our neighbors. > [snip] The G & O meaning of "neighbor" which you related would seem to contradict what we know about Jesus or Isa (pbuh). One of the most remarkable things about his life and a central point of his teaching was his emphasis on showing genuine love and concern for those who are most downtrodden and hated (e.g., prostitutes, lepers, thieves, etc.). He taught this by example as well as by words. Surely, he was showing us by his actions the true meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself." - ----------------------------- Here are some hadiths reporting what Muhammad (pbuh) had to say about love: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) commanded us to respond to the salutation of the imam. and to love each other, and to salute each other. [Samurah ibn Jundub] They (the people) asked: Tell us, Apostle of Allah, who are they? He replied: They are people who love one another for the spirit of Allah (i.e. the Qur'an), without having any mutual kinship and giving property to one. I swear by Allah, their faces will glow and they will be (sitting) in (pulpits of) light. They will have no fear (on the Day) when the people will have fear, and they will not grieve when the people will grieve. [Umar ibn al-Khattab] The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The best of the actions is to love for the sake of Allah and to hate for the sake of Allah. [AbuDharr] The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone loves for Allah's sake, hates for Allah's sake, gives for Allah's sake and withholds for Allah's sake, he will have perfect faith. [AbuUmamah] A man was with the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and a man passed by him and said: Apostle of Allah! I love this man. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then asked: Have you informed him? He replied: No. He said: Inform him. He then went to him and said: I love you for Allah's sake. He replied: May He for Whose sake you love me love you! [Anas ibn Malik] The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When a man loves his brother, he should tell him that he loves him. [Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib] The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to make du'a saying, "O Allah, I ask You for good actions and for leaving what is disapproved of and for love of the poor. and if You wish to try people, then bring me to You without being tried." [Malik ibn Anas] He continued, "He took me by the upper part of my cloak and pulled me to him and said, 'Rejoice! I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, `Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, said, 'My love is obliged for those who love each other in Me, and those who sit with each other in Me, and those who visit each other in Me, and those who give to each other generously in Me.'" [Mu'adh ibn Jabal] Anas continued, "When this ayat was sent down: 'You will not obtain rightness of action until you expend of what you love,' (surah 2 ayat 176), AbuTalhah went to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, 'Messenger of Allah! Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, has said, "You will not obtain until you expend of what you love." The property which I love the best if Bayruha. It is sadaqah for Allah. I hope for its good and for it to be stored up with Allah. Place it wherever you wish, Messenger of Allah.'" [Anas ibn Malik] The Messenger of Allah, (peace_be_upon_him) observed: You shall not enter paradise so long as you do not affirm belief (in all those things which are the articles of faith) and you will not believe as long as you do not love one another. Should I not direct you to a thing which, if you do, will foster love amongst you: (i.e.) give currency to (the practice of paying salutation to one another by saying) as-salamu alaykum. [AbuHurayrah] Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: There are one hundred (parts of) mercy of Allah and He has sent down out of these one part of mercy upon the jinn and human beings and the insects and it is because of this (one part) that they love one another, show kindness to one another and even the beast treats its young one with affection, and Allah has reserved ninety-nine parts of mercy with which He would treat His servants on the Day of Resurrection. [AbuHurayrah] Wa salaam. Craig ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Kaffea Lalla's question (was: pray for world peace etc.) Just thought a little clarification might be in order on that Kara Kush post I put up earlier today. Perhaps not, but to my tired eyes... According to Idries Shah (who probably needs no intro on this list?), the Story of Kara Kush is taken from real life, people, places, and events known to him. I was particularly interested in the way he blends reportorial style and content, with modern "adventure" fiction, and his more familiar Sufic style. The episode I posted seems very much like one of the latter - but who knows? If these things didn't occur in "real" life, they might not ring so many bells (allegorical and otherwise), when we hear them. Please forgive my often muddled, seemingly irrelevant posts. love, Aaron iceblink@teleport.COM Public Access User -- Not affiliated with Teleport Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-28800, N81) ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:47:59 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: caffeine Assalamu alaikum, Thanks for all your replies regarding caffeine.... On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Erik S. Ohlander wrote: > as salamu 'alaykum- > > Here are some textual refs. about it and its associates: > > 1) "Coffee is a corrective for dysentery, relieves thirst, and is said to > produce wisdom. It should be used sparingly" Shaykh Hakim Muinuddin Chishti > 'The Book of Sufi Healing' p.57. > > 2) "Just as any beverage that intoxicates when taken in large quanities is > also unlawful (haram) in small quantities" (speaking of non-alcoholic > beverages) al-Misri "Reliance of the Traveller" p.618. > > 3) "The best advice to be given to the consumers is to use herbs as > subsitutes of coffee and tea" A.H. Sakr "A Muslim Guide to Food > Ingredients" p. 97. > > 4) According to Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmad ("A Comprehensive List of Halal > Food Products in Us Supermarkets") coffee and tea are halal (pp.34-35). > > It would seem that we need to apply ijtihad to our own situations (?)- It seems the opinions Erik cites (and others) are wide and varying, and even opposing. I had been taking guarana tablets for the past month or so, not realizing that they were high in caffeine (they are, from other reading I have done, in fact a caffeine alternative to coffee beans). Guarana beverages are, by the way, widely drunk in Brazil. I had been told that they had a helpful affect on breathing - I am an asthmatic. This makes sense to me now, because to my understanding any kind of caffeine can have a bronchial dilation effect (opens up the passages in the lungs). However, I was led to believe (wrongly, I think), that guarana had a low caffeine content. I found, taking all this guarana, that I did have more energy, but also I didn't think as clearly as before. My behaviour in some instances seemed to change, perhaps also because I was sleeping less, and some of the behaviour changes may have been from insufficient sleep (even though I didn't feel sleepy). Anyhow, that was the context of the question. I've stopped taking the tablets now, and am just getting over the withdrawal symptoms (eg. high nervousness). I am throwing the rest of my unused tables away (I already know I have a bad reaction to caffeine, and mostly avoid caffeinated beverages). Thanks for all the info, Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: If Assalamu alaikum. On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, John Womack wrote: > Amen, Kafee Lala, America is my home too; and along with my Cherokee > ancestors, I know that the Earth is our home, too; and it's inhabitants > are our neigbors. Yes, we have differences - isn't that wonderful? Some > of the differences show up on the Tariqus Net. Forget, for a moment, the > newscasts - yes, they are awful. But consider the Tariqus Net: I don't > know that I have ever heard so many different people with different > religious, economic and political points of view meet in such a civil > exchange. I sense differences yes, and emotion and conviction too, and yet > a cautions degree of patient listening. If, just maybe, If we have the > opportunity to trust each other long enough to not swing out in > self-defense, we may find that we really are brothers and sisters, and that > we have more to learn than we have to teach. Do we really realize that we > are pioneers? And If we can learn to work with each other, maybe we can > then turn our attention and sober committment toward our common mother, our > deeply endangered planet that we call Earth. John. > > Bismillah Irahman Irahim (in the name of The One, who is mercy and compassion). This is kindof a pre-announcement for something that insh'Allah, I am hoping to start shortly called The Garden. It is a "webring" and associated discussion list for people interested in transforming the Internet into a more peaceful, loving place, and using it as a tool, insh'Allah, to help heal the planet. The homepage for The Garden is at http://www.speakeasy.org/~habib/ The associated discussion list is thegarden@world.std.com -- to subscribe, send email to majordomo@world.std.com with the following text: subscribe thegarden or, to subscribe to the digest version of the list, subscribe thegarden-digest We haven't gotten started yet with an active discussion, and I am REAL busy the next couple weeks. So, I'm not making a formal announcement yet. But, if you're interested, insh'Allah... Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sufism & Psychology Forum (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:23:20 -0800 To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: spf@ias.org (Sufism & Psychology Forum) Subject: Sufism & Psychology Forum >If you are a Sufi Psychologist, you are invited to join: > >New Addition: Sufism & Psychology Forum. > >Bringing together Sufi scholars, educators, translators, and the public, >the International Association of Sufism serves as a resource center for the >study of Sufism, with a world-wide membership. > We are pleased to announce the latest addition to the International >Association of Sufism: the Sufism and Psychology Forum (SPF). Welcoming >Sufi psychologists and couynseling professionals, the SPF will explore the >relationship between the study of Sufism and of psychology, and will bring >together the application of Sufi principles and practices and the study of >psychology through research, translation and discussion. > In order to open and maintain dialogue between Sufi psychologists >and to facilitate the integration of Sufi principles into the practice of >psychology, the SPF department plans to: >* sponsor seminars and lectures presented by Sufi Psychologists, as >well as hold informal meetings to discuss related topics; >* provide a web site bulletin board for exchanging short articles and >other information of interest related to both Sufism and psychology; >* establish a moderated IRC line; >* publish a quarterly newsletter (available both through the internet >and by mail); >* publish books on Sufi Psychology; and >* expand the IAS research library > >The Sufism and Psychology Forum is not affiliated with any one Sufi school >or order. > >You are Invited! > This Department is looking for a limited number of new members to >join the Sufism and Psychology Forum. Members will be encouraged to >contribute articles for the newsletter and to participate in lectures and >seminars. > If you are a Sufi and a psychologist, counselor or other mental >health professional, and are interested in joining this exciting forum, >please fill out the membership form and return it to IAS. > We look forward to hearing from you. > >For more information, comments, questions, please contact us a spf@ias.org Name _____________________________ Address ____________________________________ ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ e-mail _______________ Education: degree ________ field: ____________ Occupation ______________________ Publications________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ _______________ current research___________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ are you affiliated with any Sufi Order? _____________, Order:_____________________(optional) fields of interest: Sufism______________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ _____________Psychology_____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________ - -- International Assocation of Sufism ias@ias.org http://www.ias.org/ 25 Mitchell Blvd., Suite # 2 San Rafael, California 94903 USA ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 21:41:13 -0700 Subject: Re: G. & O.'s Neighbor Craig Johannsen wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > As-salamu alaykum. > > You wrote: > > What follows is MY understand of what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky > > taught about the meaning of 'neighbor' as intended by > > Isa (pbuh) in his command "Love thy neighbor..." > > > > Simply put, our neighbor is the one that is closest to us. > > Now, it seems clear that Isa (pbuh) was NOT concerned with > > physical proximity, so, in what manner is one person close > > to another? It is in a person's 'state' or level of > > consciousness. We are to love people that close to us > > in development; these are our neighbors. > > [snip] > > The G & O meaning of "neighbor" which you related would seem > to contradict what we know about Jesus or Isa (pbuh). One of > the most remarkable things about his life and a central point > of his teaching was his emphasis on showing genuine love and > concern for those who are most downtrodden and hated (e.g., > prostitutes, lepers, thieves, etc.). He taught this by example > as well as by words. Surely, he was showing us by his actions > the true meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself." I believe that G&O would have responded that only 'awake' people are capable of love and that the vast majority of people are 'sleeping'. This would not contradict the teaching of Jesus. At least not as far as I understand it. As-salaamu alaykum - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 21:50:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Righteous in hell maarof wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > >to all, > >I have found a reference to the Qur'an, of a verse describing the righteous > >in hell, and it is understood to suggest that the righteous are willing to go > >even into the worst of situations in acting from great tenderness, love, and > >compassion. > >Does anyone know the verse(s) that this might be about? > >thank you. > >in peace, > >Jinavamsa > > > > Hello Jinavamsa > > Something in my memory reminds me of words such as "this WORLD (Earth) is > HELL for the BELEIVERS". I can't remember whether is is from al-Quran or > hadith. But I thought of it mostly from the point of Muslims facing "hardship" > and "patience" to do one's duty such as salat, fasting, charity, pilgrimage > etc. > > salam > maarof Yes, maybe hell for believers, but for those that 'know', "this WORLD" is already gone. (At least so I'm told ;-) - -Michael- ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #135 *****************************