From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 21 14:48:11 1996 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:41:02 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #55 tariqas-digest Thursday, 11 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 055 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:35:27 Subject: Re: Quran 9:5 >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi >books: >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." >Any comment...? Yes; this is so very refreshing :) Thanks for sharing it, I'm still smiling. Erik. ------------------------------ From: RHMH@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:13:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Press reports on Muslim counties Nur, Please stop attaching ".dat" files to your e-mails... You could make your files available upon request so that only the people who want them must download them. Sorry to make this request public, but you were completely unresponsive to the one I sent directly to you. Thank you, ~ramabai ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:28:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Reading Assalaamu alaikum, Michael Roland wrote: >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." >Any comment...? In my opinion... Gnosis, knowledge, truth, can not be transmitted from one knower to another. Knowledge must be constructed by the individual. First I am engaged, then I explore, and finally I reflect - to know I know. It seems to me, learning is a process of knowing, embedded in the personal history of the knower. But I'm drifting here; I learn best from experience. Reading requires very little action and involvement. The learning I seek is life-long-learning, ya know?, like learning to speak or learning to ride a bike learning. Lets leave that temporary, surface, ego-inflating, I'll know it till Tuesday learning out of the discussion. It takes a superior learner to be an active reader. It can be done - questioning the text, responding to the text in writing, can help. But generally, reading is passive. I think about all the material I've read in my life and...I can't think of most of it. Oh, that book was good, and this one changed my life, but there are so many words, and so many minutes, which have slipped away. On the other hand, the moments I spend with The Dervish, are burned into my memory forever. His words, his actions, the grass flowing behind him, the smells and sounds, the ecstasy I feel when he glances my direction, all are present to me as I write this message. He doesn't recite Quran, He lives it. And I learn as I live with him. He doesn't speak of the prophets, at times, it seems as though the prophets speak thru him. And I learn as if I am sitting in a field with John the Baptist, watching, listening, as he says, "There is the Truth/Reality." Even in the best of books, the author is visible. In the best of teachers, not much is visible. Transparent - and one can see The Eternal. Reflective - and one can see one's own self, and learn about the self, and learn about The One and The All...Ahhh! Ya Allah, quide us to the experience of Oneness. Muhsin ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:52:15 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Reading > Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? Assalamu alaikum, If I remember right, didn't Shamsuddin Tabrizi burn all of Jalaluddin Rumi's books? In my experience, there is a stage when it is good to read, and there is a stage when it is better to practice! Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:09:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Reading Salikun@vnet.net wrote: > > Assalaamu alaikum, > > Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? > > In my opinion... > > Gnosis, knowledge, truth, can not be transmitted from one knower to another. > Knowledge must be constructed by the individual. First I am engaged, then I > explore, and finally I reflect - to know I know. > > It seems to me, learning is a process of knowing, embedded in the personal > history of the knower. [...] > On the other hand, the moments I spend with The Dervish, are burned into my > memory forever. His words, his actions, the grass flowing behind him, the > smells and sounds, the ecstasy I feel when he glances my direction, all are > present to me as I write this message. He doesn't recite Quran, He lives > it. And I learn as I live with him. He doesn't speak of the prophets, at > times, it seems as though the prophets speak thru him. And I learn as if I > am sitting in a field with John the Baptist, watching, listening, as he > says, "There is the Truth/Reality." > > Even in the best of books, the author is visible. > In the best of teachers, not much is visible. > Transparent - and one can see The Eternal. > Reflective - and one can see one's own self, and learn about the self, > and learn about The One and The All...Ahhh! > > Ya Allah, quide us to the experience of Oneness. Beautiful! The Rig-Vedas says, "The Real is One, though sages speak of it in many ways." Tauba (Arabic), metanoia (Greek), shubo (Hebrew): Return, i.e., go from self-hood to God-hood. It is life-in-the-heart... a junction of the three religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Many have translated the Greek work to mean "stop sinning" or "repent"; others, "change your way of thinking" or "change your mind"." Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand." If memory serves, both John The Baptist and Jesus is reported to have used this expression. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He first loved us. 1 John 4:10 How can knowledge be obtained from the printed word? Knowledge comes to you through vibration, through breath, through intuiton, through you having your whole body floaded from within and from without... your "movements" determine who you are... it is left to each of us to find out WHAT we are. Remember, in the 'Gita it is said that Arjuna (he is all of us) is the "Slayer of Sloth"... now how would such an expression come to be written so that we could read it? Use of the intellect brings understanding of what is read, what is written... but understanding, reason is far removed from where "home" is, in the bosom of Allah, your God. Let us, each in our own way, quickly RETURN. Let us change our way of thinking and touch our prepared kingdom this very moment, not tomorrow, but NOW. Pray Thy Will be done. Amin. tanzen ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:48:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Reading > Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? - --------- Reading and doing are two different things. It's like the difference between reading a book about Yosemite National Park, and actually walking through the meadow, looking at the glaciers, feeling the mist of the waterfall, tasting the sweet coolness on your cheek. There is a differnce between gray and color. Learning about God, sometimes is also unlearning. When Rumi met Tabriz (ms), he threw away his manuscript that he had been working on and studying for years, maybe. The reality of Love breaks all writing pens. There is no ink to put it down, or describe it. When the One around everything next to it is a shadow of it. After writing this all, I still realize this is a shadow. Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:19:28 -0700 Subject: RE: Reading - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6EAD.E12F6D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >If I remember right, didn't Shamsuddin Tabrizi burn all of Jalaluddin >Rumi's books? Well, I remember it being that Shams threw the books in a well. I think = the story tells us more about Shams as a teacher rather than Rumi -- it = would be different if Rumi threw them in himself. But I personally = prefer what a Hindu yogi has responded when a student asked about = throwing away his books: "Gather them, wrap them up nicely, burn some = incense, and float them down the Ganges with a thought of thankfulness = for the part they played in bringing you to a place where you don't need = them anymore." Blessings, Nur - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6EAD.E12F6D80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiQFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ACgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEsAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29tAFNNVFAAdGFyaXFhc0BldXJvcGUuc3RkLmNv bQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABcAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29t AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAZAAAAJ3RhcmlxYXNAZXVyb3BlLnN0ZC5jb20nAAAA AAIBCzABAAAAHAAAAFNNVFA6VEFSSVFBU0BFVVJPUEUuU1RELkNPTQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA+o4AQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIAB AAwAAABSRTogUmVhZGluZwCrAwEFgAMADgAAAMwHBwAKABYAEwAcAAMALAEBIIADAA4AAADMBwcA CgAWAA8AAQADAA0BAQmAAQAhAAAAQUFDNDIwNDJBMERBQ0YxMTk5REU0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA/wYB A5AGAAwEAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAIAZRiOhuuwEe AHAAAQAAAAwAAABSRTogUmVhZGluZwACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu27oiFFCIMSr2qARz5neREVTVAAA AAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEgAAAGdhbGVAc2luZXdhdmUuY29tAAAAAwAG EInFbuADAAcQ6QEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElGSVJFTUVNQkVSUklHSFQsRElETlRTSEFNU1VERElO VEFCUklaSUJVUk5BTExPRkpBTEFMVURESU5SVU1JU0JPT0tTP1dFTEwsSVJFTUVNQkVSSVRCRUlO R1RIQVRTSEFNU1QAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACfAgAAmwIAANoDAABMWkZ1UvAPtf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMA UALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQSzBTFfQqAPwjP CdkCgAqBDbELYG5nGDEwMxRQCwNsaTOeNg3wC1UVYgHQID4LRlcUUQvyE1BvE9BjBUBJ+mYcwCAX oAeABtAEkB0QAGlnaHQsIGRpKGRuJwVAUxGAbXNsdWQeIAOgVAGgBRB6eGkgYghwA6AHQAMgb/0c 4EoHQAdAHuMKhxqPG5/BHKFSdW1pJwQgBuBwb2tzPwqPIegk1VfuZSAgHgAdCWkFQB1wC4D4ZyB0 EYAedSiBF6AH4J0okGUkZCfwH/EgdycB3C4gHPEokAuAaymTE8DdBbB5KIAnAQQgdQQgBGDXF6Ag AAbgdSjGYS2hLBH/ANApsB2RKLAuUiiRA6AkAiggLS0n8ncIYGxk/yghHhEN0ASQCfAFQAaQL0S9 KUdtKjIrMB7AJwBmKtHWQi0xHQBwBJBzAiAgEW8sABNQDcAdgXcooipwSIELgGR1IHlvZx+g5xGA BCAXoHNwAiANsDBAfzSwCfAqYRPAHuAw8i3Aazc2gS0EKUFvA/AoYWF3DmEsACswJFU6ICJHVy6m E+AeAHcukHAyBHXrOwADAGMnAHkeAB/DM8DvB4AqMTvAAIBlHgAAcDBA7RkgbyixMhNkOJADoCmi vzoAGVAHkQPwKJAt4mgIYKcd0SBCLwJrZjAgbgeQ/wQgAhA6UzOACsA90zQhC2D+eTaBHxEfYRlQ KFI1gDVg/yvQKmELUTvANqIs0UOCPkB/HlJA4DaBMhMAcAbALMEuZiIk1STVQmxA8ShRc38eAAew CHAinxx0JNUWwQABSpAAAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzDAuHDp5267AUAACDDAuHDp5267AR4A PQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAmiA= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6EAD.E12F6D80-- ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Reading asalaam-u-aleikum Is there anyone on this e-list whose spiritual guide has thrown their books down a well? Recently the talk here sounds as if this were so. Mine hasn't, so I guess I am still in that stage where books are of some use. In any event, if it came to that I'm afraid the computer would have to go first. Lily ------------------------------ From: abilkhayr@taconic.net Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 08:17:56 PDT Subject: Re: Reading "Read these books, and you won't get smart." The objective in reading some books is not "to get smart", but they are (at least for me) still a useful tool for communicating something to the reader. One needs of course to choose the books they read, in order to choose to some extent what it is that gets communicated. I would love to have the opportunity to read the books in my teacher's library! - ------------------------------------- Abi'l-Khayr abilkhayr@taconic.net 07/11/96 08:17:56 - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:20:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Reading Assalaamu alaikum. Lily wrote: > >Is there anyone on this e-list whose spiritual guide has thrown their >books down a well? I was on a mountain top in southern spain - a spiritual retreat. One afternoon, The Teacher saw me reading a book. At lunch, he asked the circle, "What have you done for Allah today?" When I mentioned reading, he gave a mini-lecture on the fact that reading was not action, and that we walked the 15 miles up this mountain to act and learn. When I added I was reading the Quran, his mood changed suddenly. "To read the Quran with an open heart is action?" And then he asked me to tell everyone what I had learned. He responded, "When your holding the Quran, you have direct access to Allah." Muhsin ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:24:00 -0400 Subject: Learning THE LEARNING I thought, "I know love." I thought, "I know truth." Then, I met The Dervish: "I know I don't know!" Then, I met The Murshid: "Knowing Exists!" Then... ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:38:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Reading Hello, everybody! Lilyan Kay wrote: > Is there anyone on this e-list whose spiritual guide has thrown their > books down a well? Recently the talk here sounds as if this were so. > Mine hasn't, so I guess I am still in that stage where books are of some > use. In any event, if it came to that I'm afraid the computer would > have to go first. Well, Lilyan, nine years ago I had about 3000 books in my personal library, collected since 1954... Suddenly, I realized how much time I had put into reading and what I had gotten out of such -- I sold or gave away 2000 of them... and said to myself that I wasn't going to buy anymore! But, my promise was not kept... I have purchased about 10 in the last nine years... I guess the point is, what I get out of teacher, community is 10 timees, ney, 10,000 times more valuable than from that of reading. It's that simple, at least for me now it is... I think one has to run the intellectual gambit, before one gets so tired of "trying to figure it out", then one lets go to intuition, your "heart". The "head" has its place and it gives us the potential of being human... you might say the path is mineral ---> plant, animal, head, and finally heart... therein we "see" our palace, our home, so lovingly prepared, and leap for It. Peace and love, down silver threads of precious gold, tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:21:08 -0700 Subject: RUMI #965 MY DEAR FRIEND never lose hope when the beloved sends you away if you're abandoned if you're left hopeless tomorrow for sure you'll be called again if the door is shut right in your face keep waiting with patience don't leave right away seeing your patience your love will soon summon you with grace raise you like a champion and if all the roads end up in dead ends you'll be shown the secret paths no one will comprehend the beloved i know will give with no qualms to a puny ant the kingdom of Solomon my heart has journeyed many times around the world but has never found and will never find such a beloved again ah i better keep silence i know this endless love will surely arrive for you and you and you RUMI, ghazal number 965, translated March 28, 1992, by Nader Khalili. tanzen ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:54:48 +0700 Subject: Individuality After Merging (Was Re: A Physicist's MeditationI) At 12:08 PM 7/2/96, Keeper of the Dragon Flagon wrote: >And yet, the individual atoms are still there, and still detectable. They >have not lost their individual existance,[...] This surely provides some food for thought: When Hudoyo merges completely with the Absolute, will Hudoyo's personality remain? Will Hudoyo's individuality remain? Will he be conscious of both? What will happen with his Individuality after his death? Will he be reborn again? Or will he continue existing as an individual somewhere else? What exists before the Big Bang, and what will remain after the Big Crunch? Was Time there before and will it still be around after? To me at my current stage of my journey home, all attempts to answer all those questions will only provide me with dogmas. Or should we try to answer at all, which is after all the propensity of the human intellection? Wassalam, Hudoyo Hupudio, Indonesia ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:54:50 +0700 Subject: Transmigration of Souls (Was Re: Babies without Personality) Asssalamualaikum: At 03:11 PM 7/4/96 -0700, Frank Gaude wrote: >My own feelings, much coming from intuition, indicate that each child prays >to be born into a particular situation, to a particular set of parents, and >each has a unique past, a unique set of experiences, and a unique set of >adventures to live through: permiting God to know self, Self, through us. There is a great dichotomy in spiritual thoughts, at least gleaning from my interactions with fellow human beings: On one side, there is the belief that our souls (whatever they are) go through a long cycle of transmigration from life to life bringing along experiences and being reborn again and again with whole sets of potentialities coming from experiences in past lives, ready to develop into distinct personalities. This belief is presented as explanation of the sometimes baffling differences in personalities among siblings and even among twins, and also explanation for the inequalities and injustices in the world. If it is true, then what about the lower forms of life: do they have souls which also transmigrate? This belief seemed to be adopted by Hinduism and Buddhism among the great religions. (I'm not very sure about the beliefs of indigenous populations: the American Indians, etc.) On the other side, there is the belief that God creates each individual soul at a certain point in time, gives them one, and one only, chance at life, and then takes them back at death. This belief seemed to be adopted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam religions. Could the two beliefs be reconciled? In what way? What is the truth of the matter according to the Sufi tradition? Wassalam, Hudoyo Hupudio, Indonesia ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:54:48 +0700 Subject: Individuality After Merging (Was Re: A Physicist's MeditationI) At 12:08 PM 7/2/96, Keeper of the Dragon Flagon wrote: >And yet, the individual atoms are still there, and still detectable. They >have not lost their individual existance,[...] This surely provides some food for thought: When Hudoyo merges completely with the Absolute, will Hudoyo's personality remain? Will Hudoyo's individuality remain? Will he be conscious of both? What will happen with his Individuality after his death? Will he be reborn again? Or will he continue existing as an individual somewhere else? What exists before the Big Bang, and what will remain after the Big Crunch? Was Time there before and will it still be around after? To me at my current stage of my journey home, all attempts to answer all those questions will only provide me with dogmas. Or should we try to answer at all, which is after all the propensity of the human intellection? Wassalam, Hudoyo Hupudio, Indonesia ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:01:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Qur'an, Question 1 Erik S. Ohlander wrote: > > > The idea is that the Qur'an was transmitted *tanzil* (that is causing to > descend) piecemeal from the 'prototype of the scriptures' which exists > with God in heaven. This 'guarded tablet' is said to contain all the > scriptures given to mankind, of which the words which constitute the Qur'an > only make up its 'last section' (so to speak). So, what do you mean 'prototype'. Does this mean that the 'guarded tablet' is somehow different than the earthly version? - -Michael ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:11:42 +0100 Subject: Re: Reading Hello, everybody! Lilyan Kay wrote: > Is there anyone on this e-list whose spiritual guide has thrown their > books down a well? Recently the talk here sounds as if this were so. > Mine hasn't, so I guess I am still in that stage where books are of some > use. In any event, if it came to that I'm afraid the computer would > have to go first. - ------- My initiator never told me to get rid of books. I am an avid reader, but all I was saying is learning a practice, and finding out what happens when doing a practice are two different things. I also find that certain knowledge drops away when it is no longer useful, or applicable. Anyway according to I think coleman barks, I'm not sure, It was Rumi who decided to throw his manuscript away, Perhaps because he had met the living manusript. I don't know. Sometimes I think of throwing this computer away also, at times. Because it is such a growing experience, little taps, and hurt feelings, etc. I realize that anytime I react to something some else says, I am still just a baby on this path. ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:43:01 Subject: Re: Qur'an, Question 1 >So, what do you mean 'prototype'. Does this mean that the 'guarded tablet' >is somehow different than the earthly version? >-Michael 'Prototype' is not a good translation of the Arabic word, I should not have used it. The Arabic *umm al-kitab* (Mother of all books) relates the idea that the Qur'an is the proptotype of all 'books' (i.e., knowledge). On a more practical level, Islamic theology states that the Guarded Tablet contains not only the Qur'an, but as the Torah and the Injil - it is only different in that the representations of the Torah and the Injil (according to Islamic belief) are not exact representations of their cosmic brothers; whereas the Qur'an is. Since I have already explained the dogmatic belief behind the reality of the text od the Qur'an, I will now try to answer your question here. For this, I turn to a succint summation of the rational behind the dogmatic belief as expressed by S.H. Nasr ("ideals and Realities of Islam" p.53): " Just as a written work is comoosed by writing with a pen on a tablet so did God 'write' the eternal Qur'an by the pen (qalam) which symbolizes the Universal Intellect upon the Guraded Tablet (al-lawh al-mahfouz), the symbol of the substantial, material and passice pole of cosmic manifestation. In a metaphysical sense, then, the Qur'an contains the prototype of all creation. It is the pattern upon which all things were made. That is why in Islam one distinguishes between a Qur'an that is 'written' and 'composed' (tadwini), and a Qur'an which is 'ontological' and pertains to cosminc existence (takwini) This is not to say that there are two Qur'ans but that, metaphysically, the Qur'an has an aspect of knowlwdge connected with its inner nature as the archtypical blueprint of the universe." I hope this helps- Your brother, Erik. ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #55 ****************************