From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Tue Jul 9 16:28:45 1996 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:44:44 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #51 tariqas-digest Monday, 8 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 051 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:43:08 +0100 Subject: Re: Bugs Again >In a message dated 96-07-07 11:21:30 EDT, you write: > ><< I think the Praying Mantis could be our insect mascot, like Archie the > Cochroach, We could call it what... here could be the first thing the > Anonimous Praying-Mantis says "All insects are created equal!"... >> > >Um... the female mantis bites the head off the male when they mate. I'm sure >there are some who feel the mantis is an entirely appropriate mascot, but I >have a slight hesitation... :-) >------ Oh no, that's too bad, maybe the head is the symbolic for the small mind verses the Universal One mind. I chose praying mantis because of the word PRAY..ING Meaning PRAy Like for Peace and then the ing is the action of Living in peace. But if anyone else comes up with a different bug, then ok, check it out. Love Kaffea lalla. ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:23:19 -0700 Subject: Re: More Questions Jacquie Weller wrote: > > >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, > I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, > other parts, I do not understand. snip- > Love Kaffea Lalla. You are right to have reservations. This is why it is important to have a shaykh, (teacher). For example, did you know that the New Testament tells us the Isa (Jesus) brings a 'new covenant'. This means that 'an eye for an eye' is out and 'turn the other cheek' is in. Did you know that in reading the Quran, if there is a seeming conflict between suras, the later sura overrides the earlier one? There are so many ways to get the wrong meaning from these books. The Quaran says, kill the kafir (un-believer) that is nearest to you. Some have taken this to mean that you may kill non-muslims. A good shaykh will tell you that it refers to your nafs,- you must kill your nafs. So, to me, you seems to be in the right place. - -- Best Wishes, Brother Michael http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:39:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Book of Nature maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > Assalamualaikum my dear friends, > To my understanding, the Quran (and other Scriptures too) also acknowledge the > importance of understanding Nature (or Book of Nature). There are many > verses which point to Nature, which the Quran refer as "God's Signs". In this > context, Nature also include the spiritual aspect of things. > I don't think that 'nature' is a good interpretation for "Signs of Allah". Nature tends to have a connection to what we call the natural sciences. We are then talking about nature as things like trees, birds, rivers, oceans, winds, and basically anything that you would find on earth if man did not inhabit earth. True, the signs may come from these means, but signs may also come from man made objects. The objects are normally considered not-natural. For example, suppose I am flipping throught some radio stations, and several sentence fragments join together to say something very meaningful. Now I would consider this as sign, but I would not consider it natural, or from nature. If we limit ourselves to looking for Allah's signs in nature, then we may be blind to signs from other sources. - -- Michael Moore http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:42:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Book of Nature (was re: Lord Sloth?) Tanzen said: God's Signs are everywhere, from in and behind the galaxies, stars, planets, moons, all the things on earth, and the minds, spirits, in and behind each element, down to the subatomic particles into the vacuum, Hu. The Spirit is here, there, everywhere... for those with eyes and ears, the other senses, intuition, all everywhere. Peace over the land, this we pray, - -------------- Exquisite. Hu.... This says it All...Allah Hu...for those AWAKE OR WAKING You give me pure nudges Tanzen...Thankyou. Kaffea Lalla and you Woodsong too! K.Lalla ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 10:54:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Lord Sloth? >Is it possible, for anything, bugs, humans, Satan, to serve other than Allah? No. >Is Satan's disobedience and temptations a service to humanity? It is Allah's will; 'service' is a moot point. >Can any action occur without the prior, written, approval of Allah? No, but we must conduct ourselves in the lower relm of free-will. Brother Michael ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:53:00 +0100 Subject: Re: More Questions >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, >> I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, >> other parts, I do not understand. >snip- >> Love Kaffea Lalla. > >You are right to have reservations. This is why it is important to have >a shaykh, (teacher). For example, did you know that the New Testament >tells us the Isa (Jesus) brings a 'new covenant'. This means that >'an eye for an eye' is out and 'turn the other cheek' is in. >Did you know that in reading the Quran, if there is a seeming >conflict between suras, the later sura overrides the earlier one? >There are so many ways to get the wrong meaning from these books. > >The Quaran says, kill the kafir (un-believer) that is nearest to you. >Some have taken this to mean that you may kill non-muslims. >A good shaykh will tell you that it refers to your nafs,- you >must kill your nafs. > >So, to me, you seems to be in the right place. >-- >Best Wishes, >Brother Michael http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 >----- Thankyou for your claifying some things, Michael. Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:29:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Book of Nature Greetings, dear brother! >If we limit ourselves to looking for Allah's signs in nature, >then we may be blind to signs from other sources. yes, i agree... if we define 'nature' as being exclusive of humankind. But, aren't we ALL part of nature? Allah's signs are in all "natural"(?) things? Are things that are "man made" unnatural? Without Essence of Creator? I don't know. I /think/ that man-made 'things' /can/ have Essence of Creator if that is imparted somehow...(i'm thinking along the lines of works of art), but i have a very difficult time seeing how a TV, for instance, is part of "Nature". It's component parts are, of course, 'natural'... but... <> ... can someone help me understand this? Michael, thank you for allowing me to see these questions i have! peace... love, carol ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:01:47 -0700 Subject: Re: More Questions Jacquie Weller wrote: > > >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, > I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, > other parts, I do not understand. > > I don't understand a woman or a man being buried knee deep and stoned to death, > for commiting adultery. > > I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or > judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. > [snip] I sense that Jacquie's questions and Michael's reply emphasizing the importance of having a teacher are both part of the answer to Maarof's question about the needing to know the Prophet, peace be on him, before the Koran makes sense. The Truth, when it comes to us from the hands or deeds of men, however divinely inspired they may be and however good their intentions may be, will never arrive uncorrupted. This is why we must always seek the kernal of Truth that lies within these worldly creations and why a teacher can help. When we attempt to know the Truth we also filter everything through our culturally conditioned preconceptions. The more we can shed these, the better we will understand the Koran and the teachings of the saints. Let Allah be the judge and the source of guidance on the straight path. - -- Love to all, Craig ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:46:42 -0400 Subject: Re: More Questions Assalaamu alaikum Crazy, Heretical, Intoxicated, Individual Opinions Follow: Kaffea Lalla wrote: >I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or >judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. I believe?, one of the Arabic words for angel is Melike, related to our word for molecule. Maybe, our actions are recorded in the results - like Karma. Or, maybe the nerve cells in our brains, which some believe record everything we think, sense and do forever, are our own personal book of deeds. >To me living apart from the Beloved in the now is a type of agony, but in this >relationship, Heaven on earth. Look with beautiful eyes, and the world is pardise. I know many who "burn" with the desire and lust for - this and that. >I don't understand a war between evil and good? I can be, and often am, selfish, irresponsible, cruel. Yet, I can also act with love and kindness. At times it seems like a battle to avoid doing wrong and to do good. > I don't understand people who think that there is only one religion, whereby >people are saved. Alright, I'll have to admit here, I am one of "these" people. In my opinion, there is only One God and One Path - Sometimes called: Submission, Englightenment, Nirvana, Self-Purification, etc... Many names, and many words to describe The One. The Rig-Veda(?) says, "The Real is One, though sages speak of it in many ways." I believe, at the heart of all the world religions, is The Path. If one does what Jesus says, If one does what Buddha says, If one follows the example of Muhammed, Ali, or Abraham, etc... If one examines the heart, no matter what word one names heart, and attempts to purify, polish, perfect -> Peace, Tranquility, Paradise! Swifty falling in love with this space as well, Muhsin ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timeless Sufi Wisdom (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 8 Jul 1996 19:48:11 GMT From: "Jamey (Muhammad Aziz)" Newsgroups: alt.islam.sufism, alt.religion.islam, soc.religion.islam Subject: Timeless Sufi Wisdom Asalamu-alaikum, May Allah protect us and guide us on the straight path. For all who are interested, the Bawa Muhaiyaddeen Fellowship now has a presence on the web. The current URL is http://www.libertynet.org/~bawa and sometime this month will change to http:/www.bawa.org. The E-mail address is info@bawa.org. I encourage all who are thirsty for divine wisdom to drink from this abundant source. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:44:53 +0800 Subject: Re: More Questions On Mon, 08 Jul 1996, "Michael J. Moore" wrote: >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, >> I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, >> other parts, I do not understand. >snip- >> Love Kaffea Lalla. > [...] >The Quaran says, kill the kafir (un-believer) that is nearest to you. >Some have taken this to mean that you may kill non-muslims. >A good shaykh will tell you that it refers to your nafs,- you >must kill your nafs. > >So, to me, you seems to be in the right place. >-- >Best Wishes, >Brother Michael http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 > The Quran says, kill the unbelievers nearest to me? Hmmm... I've never met this verse, Michael. However, there are verses about the conduct of war, and what struck me most is that Muslims are prohibited from attacking anyone who seek refuge in places of worship (church, synagogoue, temple). There are also verses which described the rights of slaves and free-man. However, the Quran gave a special importance to freeing slaves, as a penalty in cases such as not be able to fast the whole month of Ramadan. The Quran also encouraged the freeing of slaves and considered these acts as noble deeds. One thing we must keep in mind, is that the Quran was revealed when the slavery was practiced at the time of Prophet. At present time, the Muslim ummah by concensus have totally reject slavery (however the verses on slavery are still relevant as part of our historical perspective on the evolution of the ummah). Insha-Allah, in the future when the word "war" only remains in historical books, the future ummah will take the necessary step, by concensus, to reject war and consider it as an evil act which huamnity should avoid. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 06:15:34 +0800 Subject: Re: More Questions On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: >>From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, >I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, >other parts, I do not understand. > >I don't understand a woman or a man being buried knee deep and stoned to death, >for commiting adultery. > >I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or >judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. > [...] > >I do not wish to offend anyone about all this, but these questions are sincere, >not intended to cause harm. Love Kaffea Lalla. > Dear Lalla I also don't understand them, especially the case of the woman and the man being buried knee deep (or waist deep, or whatever) and stoned to death. The story gave a strong impression on me, and whenever I walk on roadside and met ants or other insects and small creatures, I remembered the fate of those "pure" man and woman, and I couldn't step on those ants. For those who don't know the story, they might easily step on those ants, but I couldn't. That "painful tales" of the woman and the man happened 1,400 years ago. The man, the woman and the woman's baby seemed to live forever... your brother maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 06:48:17 +0800 Subject: Re: More Questions On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: [...] >I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or >judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. > [...] Love Kaffea Lalla. > I believe there is an angel or malak recording all my sins, including my posts to this list, which might make some of your angry. From you, whom I unintentionally (or intentionally) offended, I seek your forgiveness. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:02:10 +0100 Subject: Re: More Questions > > >On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: >>>From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, >>I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH >yes, >>other parts, I do not understand. >> >>I don't understand a woman or a man being buried knee deep and stoned to death, >>for commiting adultery. >> >>I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or >>judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. >> >[...] >> >>I do not wish to offend anyone about all this, but these questions are sincere, >>not intended to cause harm. Love Kaffea Lalla. >> > >Dear Lalla > >I also don't understand them, especially the case of the woman and the man >being buried knee deep (or waist deep, or whatever) and stoned to death. >The story gave a strong impression on me, and whenever I walk on roadside and >met ants or other insects and small creatures, I remembered the fate of those >"pure" man and woman, and I couldn't step on those ants. For those who don't >know the story, they might easily step on those ants, but I couldn't. > >That "painful tales" of the woman and the man happened 1,400 years ago. The man, >the woman and the woman's baby seemed to live forever... > >your brother >maarof > >-----I have heard from my muslim friend from pakistan, that this is still done today. The burying people knee deep and stoning them for adultery. He said it is the law there, is that true, or did I misunderstand my friend. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:19:39 +0100 Subject: Re: More Questions > > >On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: > >[...] > >>I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or >>judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. >> >[...] > > Love Kaffea Lalla. >> > >I believe there is an angel or malak recording all my sins, including my posts >to this list, which might make some of your angry. From you, whom I >unintentionally (or intentionally) offended, I seek your forgiveness. > >salam >maarof >-------- If God knows immediately everything, why is it recorded. How can God forget. I know one scripture about cain murdering his brother, it was asked how God knew and he said because his blood cried from the earth, this is paraphrased. k.Allah. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:21:14 +0800 Subject: Re: Book of Nature On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, CWoodsong@aol.com wrote: [...]i have a very difficult time seeing how a TV, for instance, is part of >"Nature". It's component parts are, of course, 'natural'... but...[..] > peace... love, > carol > This is easy :) Don't watch the wonder of TV, but look at the wonder of your eyes, with which we see the all wonders of earth and the heavens. hope this helps a bit. salam marof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:43:41 +0800 Subject: Hudud On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: >> >>I also don't understand them, especially the case of the woman and the man >>being buried knee deep (or waist deep, or whatever) and stoned to death. >>The story gave a strong impression on me, and whenever I walk on roadside and >>met ants or other insects and small creatures, I remembered the fate of those >>"pure" man and woman, and I couldn't step on those ants. For those who don't >>know the story, they might easily step on those ants, but I couldn't. >> >>That "painful tales" of the woman and the man happened 1,400 years ago. The >man, >>the woman and the woman's baby seemed to live forever... >> >>your brother >>maarof >> >>-----I have heard from my muslim friend from pakistan, that this is still >done today. The burying people knee deep and stoning them for adultery. He >said it is the law there, is that true, or did I misunderstand my friend. >Kaffea Lalla > Yes, this practice is still done in some parts of the Muslim world. In Malaysia, the sentence is usually a fine depending on some states. Some states imposed a jail sentence (the most recent case was 2 couples jailed for 30 days). But the law is not equally applied, because the non-Muslim partner was not charged under the Syariah court. Sometimes, I think the Law is never equally applied because usually those caught are ordinary people and not the rich and the powerful. This issue is a hot topic in Muslim world, it will be very interesting to discuss it. Even in the Muslim world, there are different of opinions regarding punishments on criminal law. So it varies between one country to another. My opinion on this matter is I look at the intention in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet in applying those punishment, but in these times of decline in Muslim world, there is a greater need of tarbiyah (educating) the people to understand and reach for the Islamic ideal, rather than enforcing punishments, which potray Islam as a harsh religion, which it is not. I hope I answer your question :) your brother maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:50:39 +0800 Subject: Why, God? On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: >>I believe there is an angel or malak recording all my sins, including my posts >>to this list, which might make some of your angry. From you, whom I >>unintentionally (or intentionally) offended, I seek your forgiveness. >> >>salam >>maarof >>-------- >If God knows immediately everything, why is it recorded. How can God forget. >I know one scripture about cain murdering his brother, it was asked how God knew >and he said because his blood cried from the earth, this is paraphrased. >k.Allah. > Dear Lalla, This question we have to ask to God. Why create human, you and me, in the first place? Is it necessary? hmm... I don't know. Maybe we aren't important after all, and God doesn't care? your brother, maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:25:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Questions Why did I ask all those questions As if thinking this and that so matters What is this blood of Great Compassion Giving life, Killing none, Turning me inside out So what I thought no longer is I know this kiss Will heal forever. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:27:48 +0100 Subject: Re: Questions Why did I ask all those questions As if thinking this and that so matters What is this blood of Great Compassion Giving life, Killing none, Turning me inside out So what I thought no longer is I know this kiss Will heal forever. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 17:42:57 -0700 Subject: Re: nature, blessings and respect CWoodsong@aol.com wrote: > I want to believe that it is possible to live in a way that there are no > pests, or weeds... where i can recognize the importance of all... and learn > to live in harmony, if not unity. > > What i keep asking myself.... what 'good' is it if i recognize Unity of ALL, > but then live in a way which disrespects the Way... in this place, now? I > walk this Earth... and it is important to me to learn how to do that > gently... with love, and respect... to honor "all my relations" (ALL). > > Maybe you guys can define 'Nature' and 'Natural' and 'respect' and 'love' and > 'unity' and all that ... God, i love this place! :) Me thinks you just did... tanzen ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #51 ****************************