From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 7 07:29:47 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #44 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 3 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 044 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob King Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: analogies/metaphors On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > A personality is like a coat I've never seen anyone successfully set aside a personality as if it were a coat, and in general (for those who have been following the thread Tanzen began by talking about ice/units) I'm thinking that metaphors drawn from as close to human experience as possible are better for talking about human experience. Just a thought. Enjoying the thread. . . Bob ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 18:42:12 -0700 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Someone said to me "this is natural". So, I considered > the meaning of 'nature'. The word is devisive in that it > creates a division; this is natural, that is not natural. > But are these catagories real or the product of human > imagination. Hi, Michael! You make a good point. When you think about it: every word, right down to the last, has a counter, a negative. So we find all words are defined by using other words... words, catagories, are all products of human imagination. Is not that the reason we have reason, intellect, and considered higher than the angels? Words give us the struggle that seems to be a product of the way Will of Absolute created the "create", all so mysterious, don't you think? Peace, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:23:40 -0700 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Keeper of the Dragon Flagon wrote: > > >Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 12:25:38 -0700 > >From: "Michael J. Moore" > > A good summation regarding the 'natural' state of things! > > I have some comments, not in opposition to yours, but just some ideas I > have along similar lines. The same goes for me. {...] > Another thought I have had, prompted by an essay I read by J.R.R. Tolkien. > Entities like souls, spirits, gods, demons, jinn, fairy folk, and so on, > are usually thought of as 'supernatural', with plain old mundane stuff as > 'natural'. But is this really the case? It seems that gods, demons, and > jinn are far, far more natural than we are. It is we who have become > 'supernatural'. The gods and demons should be casting spells on us to > banish us or conjure us, not the other way around! ;-) You know from all the energy put into this idea of natural, un-natural, we could get the idea that it either makes no difference or that the differences are all required to make "the system" work... the ancient Ray of Creation covers the levels of creation, from create to non-create, well, with an idea of the laws that govern each level, from the "unkownable", i.e., Will of Absoulte that many call Allah or God, through archangel, angel, to biological life on earth, earth, and moon, and back to a dimension that has no movement, just purity, which can be understood as the unknowable. From dot, the aught, we move to the infinite circle, naught. All symbolic and abstract! >From all this one can conclude that every "drop" of matter, mind, spirit, is required and that each level is of equal importance to the unknowable, else we would have someother "system". Additonally, from each drop we get the "quality" of the whole... so that matter transforms spirit and spirit transforms matter, with mind being the connective. One cannot separate spirit from matter or mind... there are one, just as all the levels are dependent on each other... thus we begin to understand "love" and attraction, just as gravity is to earth, love is that connective between levels, keeping all together under law, under order. That same love is the thread, force pushing, pulling us along, up and down, the Ray. Gosh, this is stimulating. Now back to wazifa. Thy Will be mine! Peace, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:32:42 -0700 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Greetings tanzen, Frank Gaude wrote: > > Michael J. Moore wrote: > > > > catagories, are all products of human imagination. Is not that the reason we > have reason, intellect, and considered higher than the angels? Well, the IDEA of 'higher' is a whole nuther topic. ;-) > > Words give us the struggle that seems to be a product of the way Will of > Absolute created the "create", all so mysterious, don't you think? Yes I do, but sometimes I wish I didn't. --- But seriously, are you saying here that devisivness is the nature of creation. That without divisions, there is no creation? Of course you are right, because without division there is nothing but unity with allah. The creation by it's very nature/definition must be perceived as seperate from the creator. And anything separate or apart from the creator must be flawed because only the creator is perfect. This gives rise to the notion of the 'Fallen Universe'. Cheers - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:35:49 -0700 Subject: Re: analogies/metaphors Bob King wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > > > A personality is like a coat > > I've never seen anyone successfully set aside a personality as if it > were a coat, Nor have I Bob but sleeping babies come pretty darn close! They are so angelic. > Bob ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:51:46 -0700 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Frank Gaude wrote: >> From dot, the aught, > we move to the infinite circle, naught. All symbolic and abstract! > just as all the levels are dependent on > each other... thus we begin to understand "love" and attraction, just as > gravity is to earth, love is that connective between levels, keeping all > together under law, under order. That same love is the thread, force pushing, > pulling us along, up and down, the Ray. Not much I can add to that except 'COOL'! Having read most of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Nicoll, and Wilson I can say without reservation "Someone I call I thinks it understands". ;-) Ciao, - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 01:42:53 -0400 Subject: Re: In Celebration Of >to tanzen and his fellow beings in the land of the missisippi >as i sat on this shore of rejang and saw a hornbill resting >i thought of that eagle, soaring proudly in that magnificent blue sky > >the missisippi and the rejang, join and become one >with all the rivers of the world, the ocean of our hearts thank you maarof! ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 02:02:24 -0400 Subject: Re: In Celebration Of >The ideal of this USA is freedom of Religion and Worship... >The coin says In God We Trust >The Constitution says All men (and I add woman) are created equal >These are ideals, not always lived in the streets >and in the neigborhoods, and in our community, >But they still are good Ideals. yes... let us help move towards those Ideals! Did you know that those Ideals were lived by the Peoples originally inhabiting this land? >I say to the citizens of earth, Let us take care of the earth, >Not polute her with poison, war, bloodshed... That is an Ideal worth living for! :) >If we are to honor our native soil, let us also honor our >neigbors soil. Let Peace and Tolerance Begin home and abroad. >This is the ideal of common folks, let it be the ideal of >governments. and maybe we can learn to live a bit less 'patriotically' (exclusivity)... moving towards Unity in Diversity! ... that ALL may live FREE! love ya, sister! carol ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:07:05 +0800 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature On Tue, 02 Jul 1996, Michael Moore wrote: >Greetings tanzen, > >Frank Gaude wrote: >> >> Michael J. Moore wrote: >> > > >> >> catagories, are all products of human imagination. Is not that the reason we >> have reason, intellect, and considered higher than the angels? > >Well, the IDEA of 'higher' is a whole nuther topic. ;-) >> >> Words give us the struggle that seems to be a product of the way Will of >> Absolute created the "create", all so mysterious, don't you think? > >Yes I do, but sometimes I wish I didn't. --- But seriously, are you >saying here that devisivness is the nature of creation. That without >divisions, there is no creation? Of course you are right, because >without division there is nothing but unity with allah. The creation >by it's very nature/definition must be perceived as seperate from the >creator. And anything separate or apart from the creator must be flawed >because only the creator is perfect. This gives rise to the notion >of the 'Fallen Universe'. >Cheers >-Michael- > Salam to Tanzen and Michael Michael, you wrote: "The creation by it's very nature/definition must be perceived as seperate from the creator. And anything separate or apart from the creator must be flawed because only the creator is perfect. This gives rise to the notion of the 'Fallen Universe'. This reminds me what Asha wrote a few days ago about "complaining to God". I wonder why one complains about anything? Is it about something unfulfil, or one sees imperfection of things, or one sees oneself as an imperfect creation, and thus complain this imperfection to the creator. But the word "creator" and "creation" might play a trick here. "A perfect creator" and "imperfect creation" is a paradox, because it implies that the creator is imperfect. The only way to "correct" this perception is to think that the creation is perfect, but it is man's imperfection to see the perfect creation. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Samad GHAROONI Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:54:13 +0100 Subject: Re: newsletter > To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > From: roodee@pacific.net.sg (Rudy Herman) > Subject: Re: newsletter available > Date sent: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:26:06 +0800 > Send reply to: tariqas@facteur.std.com > Please include me in your mailing list... > > Jazakallah ********************************************** Salam' alaikok, I would like inreciving the above newsletter. my E-mail address is c.s.gharoni@sheffield.ac.uk Thank you, samad Gharooni > > > At 20:07 01-07-96 -0400, you wrote: > >>the monthly newsletter from Omega Press Mail Order Bookstore has just been > >sent to our e-mail list. this newsletter tries to highlight new works in the > >field of Sufism, with some related titles added in. > >> > >>if you are interested in receiving this newsletter and do not currently, > >simply send a brief note in reply to this message and we will add you to our > >e-mail list. > >> > >>------------------------------------- > >>Abi'l-Khayr > >>abilkhayr@taconic.net > >>06/30/96 22:03:21 > >>------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >I would be interested in receiving the above mentioned newsletter. My email > >address is ennea@net-gate.com. > > > >Thank you, > > > >Mark Fenkner > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Bob King Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: analogies/metaphors On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Michael Moore wrote: > Bob King wrote: > > > > I've never seen anyone successfully set aside a personality as if it > > were a coat, > > Nor have I Bob but sleeping babies come pretty darn close! > They are so angelic. Hmmm, not sure what you're getting at Michael, do say more! Bob ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 06:26:54 -0700 Subject: Wednesday's Rumi RUNNING AND LEAPING NONSTOP till i catch up with the fastest rider annihilating forever vanishing for good till i reach the soul of the world very happy i've become ever since i changed to a piece of fire and with this fire i'll burn my house and dwell in the desert i'll soften and humble i'll change to earth till i grow your flowers in me i'll crawl and flow i'll change myself to water till i can reach your paradise garden without pain no healer will tend me or give me potions i'll change to total pain till i get total healing ever since i was born i was thrown into this world helpless and shivering like a speck of dust in the air but as soon as i reach the end of this journey and settle down i'll be secured and tranquil forever ghazal number 1400, translated December 28, 1991 tanzen ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:43:10 +0100 Subject: My interpretation Some questions: 1. Does someone have to do something to get love? 2. Does someone have to prove something to feel special? 3. Did something positive come out of this experience? My interpretation, is: 1. No, I do not have to do anything to get love. Love is free, God freely gives love, God is love, Love is God, and Love is God in me. 2. No, I don't have to prove anything to feel special. God is all the reality there is. God is special. God lives in me and everyone, and that is what is special. Everyone is alive in God, and that is special. I can't do anything to earn this, this is the grace, beauty, harmony, wonder, friendship of God in one and all in one. The Allah. 3. Yes there was one positive experience. I jumped into what I thought was the end of me, and it was the beginning. The Alpha and Omega, eternally turning. Lessons: A. It doesn't matter what others say, whether they approve or not. B. Do not be externally driven. C. Just Be D. Know the unconditional love inside that is not owned by anyone except God. E. Prove nothing. F. What appears to be horrible, might not be. G. The end of the false is the beginning of the real. H. I have run out of lessons. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 07:19:23 -0700 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Bism-Allahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim! Michael Moore wrote: > > Greetings tanzen, > > Frank Gaude wrote: > > > > Michael J. Moore wrote: > > > > > catagories, are all products of human imagination. Is not that the reason we > > have reason, intellect, and considered higher than the angels? > > Well, the IDEA of 'higher' is a whole nuther topic. ;-) Yes, and lower and higher are just constructs of our language... I personally do not consider humans as more importance than angels or rocks. Each level of being is necessary as laid out by Will of Absolute, that which starts behind Allah. > > Words give us the struggle that seems to be a product of the way Will of > > Absolute created the "create", all so mysterious, don't you think? > > Yes I do, but sometimes I wish I didn't. --- But seriously, are you > saying here that devisivness is the nature of creation. "Devisiveness" is a possibility, but not a necessity... each level of the create has a certain amount of free will, free play, free-to-use power, and how that power is chosen to be used deteremines degree of harmony... If one sees free will as "spirit" then things start to clear up. The word "spiritual" seems either so overused or so misunderstood... the idea of "will", i.e., the power-to-do, is likened to the architect of a building: plans drawn up as to what is desired (willed). These plans are handed over to the contractor, the "mind", to fashion into reality, and the result is "matter", the thing built... seems so simple once the abstract is brought down to earth level, to level of biological life. Mystics "see" this and try to put it all into words, and we get poetry. Aaah, poetry of Rumi! Meditation into the Light shows that all these levels, divisions of power, are really simply aspects of THAT One, Allah, The Beloved. > That without > divisions, there is no creation? There is no creation without differences and distinctions! Purity is of Will, that which stands behind will, behind spirit. > Of course you are right, because > without division there is nothing but unity with allah. Yes... should have read ahead... you see we each are architects but don't have the wisdom of the Absolute, though we be an aspect of such. The Absolute is not separate from creation. Absolute contains both create and non-create... we with our words can go no further... experience is the thing: get experience and from such comes knowledge. > The creation > by it's very nature/definition must be perceived as seperate from the > creator. Such is not my knowledge or understanding... Clear Light, pure land, indicates just the opposite. God is within all, is all. > And anything separate or apart from the creator must be flawed > because only the creator is perfect. This gives rise to the notion > of the 'Fallen Universe'. Many look at it this way... we each have our unique way... diversity of option, belief, is a product of free will... when you imagine an angel having a "certain" free will, not what we as humans have, you can understand creation. (A clue might be that angels are simply, and not much more, "messengers of God". Now a good messenger has "no" will of its own, thus is super reliable in the quality of delivery.) Also each atom in matter has a will, to obey laws or not... most obey, there are some sports... but cells in matter do get "sick" thus you gain insight into their free wills and their minds. But never forget that all of this "stuff" is connected, nothing can be separated from the whole. Just as in our music, you drop one note and things are not the same... you need every note in the scale to produce harmony! Every atom is a note, every person is a note, every archangel is a note. Enough of this mind talk... back to wazifa... Thy Will be mine (9269), Thy Will be mine (9270)... Alhamdu'lilla! Peace, Michael, the only power, tanzen at lake tahoe california usa ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:18:05 -0400 Subject: Re: The IDEA of nature Natural means the way, as in Tao. Spirituality means the easy way to the goal (not that anything much is easy). Natural means forcing something never works anyway. Weeds, gardeners say, is just a plant out of place. Weeds aren't natural, though of course there are times that it is a gardeners idea of "out of place" that is out of place and so a good gardner learns from the persistence of weeds that it may be her idea that is the weed. So a good gardner learns the easy way, the natural way. Sufis is just the easy way to the goal, so we call it natural. .... but, as to the nature of IDEAS !!! A ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 08:23:36 -0700 Subject: Let Us Hear Thy Voice To The Beloved! Song of Songs 2:11 (KJV) For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether. - ------- tanzen ------------------------------ From: Keeper of the Dragon Flagon Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 11:41:39 Subject: Re: In Celebration Of >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 02:02:24 -0400 >From: CWoodsong@aol.com >and maybe we can learn to live a bit less 'patriotically' (exclusivity)... What is a 'patriot'? My dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary, that the term ultimately derives from 'pater'-- father --, which implies 'fatherland'. This makes sense. But my 'fatherland' is the Holy Land, and not the geographical Holy Land upon which far too much blood has been spilt, and continues to be spilt, but the Inner Holy Land, towards which we all journey as Pilgrims, for which our own blood is the Holy Blood. >moving towards Unity in Diversity! ... that ALL may live FREE! Aye... E Pluribus Unum! Unity from Diversity, not Unity from Homogeneity! - --------------------------------------- Brett W. McCoy "Unix was never designed to keep Istvan Dragosani people from doing stupid things, istvan@gnn.com because that policy would also keep Disciple of the Eastern Mysteries them from doing clever things." of both Love and War -- Doug Gwyn ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabreil Hanafi) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:02:21 -0500 Subject: Samad Samad Do I know what I need? My poor knotted mind at this ripe age natters in fantasy. It thinks: heaven, and than: a forever and even attached relationship with the Beloved. If it had its own perverse dream or nightmare come to pass It would make of that association what it has made of four marriages past What do I know of need? My guide is named Samad there are those who find his presence to be everything that anyone could possibly provide he would blush if he could here me now. How much more Allah can see than these blind eyes always distracted by the glitter of artificial stones and paste. The sweetness of the phrase in sha Allah (in the Will of Allah) the quintesense of already having happened El hum du le lah a rob el al amin (thank Allah the Ruler of all the worlds) the prayer hidden in the jewel Amin is all this rag head mind, and heart of stone and soul with holes will ever need: The rest are words that I invent for mischief and for nonsense sake. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:52:19 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 10:34:36 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #44 ****************************