From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Fri Aug 9 06:25:24 1996 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 05:15:35 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #96 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 7 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 096 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Erik S Ohlander Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:03:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Jinn wa 'alaykum as-salam- Yes, for instance the nephelim in the Torah. Erik. On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > Assalamualaikum, > > Is there any reference on jinn (or djinn) or beings other > than man and angel in the Bible? > > salam > maarof > ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 06:41:29 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1515 HOW VERY CLOSE is your soul with mine i know for sure everything you think goes through my mind i am with you now and doomsday not like a host caring for you at a feast alone with you i am happy all the times the time i offer my life or the time you gift me your love offering my life is a profitable venture each life i give you pay in turn a hundred lives again in this house there are a thousand dead and still souls making you stay as this will be yours a handful of earth cries aloud i used to be hair or i used to be bones and just the moment when you are all confused leaps forth a voice hold me close i'm love and i'm always yours ghazal number 1515, translated March, 1991, by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:18:48 -0700 Subject: Re: A good cookie is hard to find? Dear friends: My point in distributing the cookie story was to present a non-classical nasruddin type story and see what could be learned from it. There are many threads associated with the story. We see how good and evil mix in the world. Is everything that is touched by relative evil or some level of naf associated to be suspect and discarded? or is it to be reclaimed and purified? and the fruits of that action utilized? On a personal responsibility level, do I just ignore this. The histories of many situations I find have long causal chains associated with them. Do I not get involved because it was something started before my time and I want no part of it, or ? i.e. Do I dare eat the cookie from this recipe? Then where do I draw the boundary of what I do get involved with and do not get involved with? While I am in this world, can I choose not to nibble on the cookie? (chocolate chip cookies .... yum) I do not expect answers to these considerations, but just wanted to share some of these fallouts of the great cookie controversy and the relative complexity thereof. ;-) Bewildered and bemused, Raqib > >I noticed an objection to using Tariqas for distributing cookie recipies, >that we should limit our posts to discussion of sufism. > >I would just like to point out that this is a recipe for CHOCOLATE CHIP >cookies... > >;-) > > - -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:29:29 PST Subject: Re: A Presence Like Rain - --from Delicious Laughter Rumi version by Coleman Barks Mathnawi V, 199-223. thank you maarof! Here's another: "Everything other than love for the most beautiful God is agony of the spirit, though it be sugar-eating. What is agony of the spirit? To advance taward death without seizing hold of the Water of Life. " from the Mesnevi ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:30:25 PST Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) >Salaams to one and all loving blessings unto you! >I agree in essence with the post directed at Tanzen. But to suggest >that he leave the group is also not correct. What 'good' for us to 'agree' or 'disagree'? Didn't God say that there is only I? >Rather I think people Tanzen should indeed remain as examples of >states of mind and conditions of being that should be avoided. Yes, he tends to bring that out in people sometimes! ;) with love, carol ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:07:07 -0700 Subject: al_Ghazaali on Women >From 'The Revival of the Religious Sciences" Should stay at home and get on with her spinning, she should not go out often, she must not be will-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband and respect him in his presence and in his absence and seek to satisfy him in everything; she must not cheat on him nor extort money from him; she must not leave her house without his permission and if given his permission, she must leave surreptitiously. She should put on old clothes and take deserted streets and alleys, avoid markets, and make sure that a stranger does not hear her voice or recognize her; she must not speak to a friend of her husband even if in need... Her sole worry should be her virtue, her home, her prayers, as well as her fast. If a friend of her husband calls when the latter is absent she must not open the door nor reply to him in order so safeguard her and her husbands honour. She should accept what her husband gives her as sufficient sexual needs at any moment. ... She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment. "Book of Counsel for Kings" for Eve's misbehaviour in the Garden As for the distinctive characteristics with which God on high has punished women, (the matter is as follows): "When Eve ate fruit which He had forbidden to her from the tree in Paradise, the Lord, be He praised, punished women with 18 things: (1) menstruation; (2)childbirth; (3)separation from mother and father and marriage to a stranger;(4)pregnancy; (5)not having control over her own person; (6)a lesser share in inheritance; (7)her liability to be divorced and inability to divorce; (8)its being lawful for men to have four wives, but for a woman to have only one husband; (9)the fact that she must stay secluded in the house; (10)the fact that two women's testamony has to be set against the testamony of one man;(12)the fact that she must not go out of the house unless accompanied by a near relative;(13)the fact the men take part in Friday and feast day prayers and funerals while women do not; (14)disqualification for rulership and judgeship; (15)the fact that merit has 1,000 components, only one of which is attributable to women, while 999 are attrubutable to men; (16)the fact that if women are profligate they will be given only half as much tornment as the rest of the community at Resurrection Day;[This does not seem like a punishment! An in translation?] (17)the fact that if their husbands die they must observe a waiting period of 4 months and 10 day before remarrying; (18)the fact that if their husband divorces them they must observe a waiting period of three months or three menstrual periods before remarring. - -- Michael Moore home page --> http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imam Al Ghazzali asalaam-u-aleikum A while back there was a post questioning where the misogyny was in Imam Al Ghazzali's writings. I emailed Mohja Kahf to ask this, she is a professor of comparative literature whose first language is Arabic. Following is an excerpt of her response. Lily ******************************************************************** Gee, I have his whole four volumes of Ihya back home in Arkansas. Almost anywhere you open it you can come up with something. Like, he typically mentions women as part of the dunya which distracts the worshiper (always male) from his pure journey, kind of a temptation of St Anthony. Women are by nature closer to dunya, he says somewhere, they are always heavy with children and childbirth and nursing and blood and grease (this is a very approximate paraphrase of the general meaning from reading it years ago) and cooking and adornment and trivial amusement and occupations which distract them from devotion and worship, their minds and spirits are thus always at a lower level than men's, and they try to drag men down with them but the good worshipper humors them and does not take them seriously. Although occasionally, he admits, EVEN a woman can ascend to high levels, like Rabia, etc. Even a woman, so how shameful it would be if any ordinary man should not follow that path when EVEN a woman has done it. That's the type of tone he has. Everywhere. Ouch. (....) I am curious about the many translations of parts of ghazali s works. i have some of them but have not read them. i suspect they edit out his misogyny in order to retrieve him for modern day seekers, since he has so many worthy things to say. Najib (Mohja's husband) used to love the Ihya and used to read to me aloud from it but he had never noticed the misogyny (in his traditional fog that he was in when i found him). After a few read-alouds, it was so upsetting to me that i no longer wanted to read from it. ------------------------------ From: "Abbas B. Talib" Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 08:42:06 +800 Subject: Re: another test As a person who seldom write and is a quiet and silent observer of the Tarigas, I have noted that in many instances there are more than two copies of the same thing. Recently I was on home leave. When I returned I was surprised to find 1250 messages. I might also add that several of these copies were sent more than once. I might also add several issues were not very significant in Islam referring to making cookies, arguments between people on subjects such as keeping beards, and women. Is there a form of editing and condensing the daily messages into a summarized form and sent out once a week. In this way you can get rid of the useless arguments and topics of no consequence. Thank you. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: another test Author: tariqas@facteur.std.com at INTERNET Date: 6/8/96 4:37 PM There should only be one copy of this sent, if two or three get out then my eudora is not working properly or my server is screwing up. Please Habib let me know if this is just one copy or not. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:58:05 -0700 Subject: Re: al-Ghazzali Thanks Michael and Lily for sharing the Ghazzali information about = women. i know for myself, and always finding inspiration in so much = classical Sufi teachers, Ghazzali has never drawn my attention. i = always sensed he was "stuck" and couldn't figure out why -- there's = always this tension i find in his words between wanting to state the = truth but being pulled into his little mind world. Thanks for pointing = out one of the major reasons why he has never been a shining light for = me. Blessings, Nur ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:26:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Assalamu alaikum, Someone (not sure who) wrote: > >"Illness is a manifestation of self-centered and morally weak > > behaviors. Imagine the public health problems we solve if we > > realize this in our country. The vast majority of our problems > > are due to gluttony, promiscuity, and other expressions of our > > spiritual bankruptcy."--in a private message sent to me My mother has Hepatitis C. People such as drug addicts often get Hepatitis C from sharing needles, that sort of thing. My mother probably got it from a blood transfusion after she had a miscarriage in the early 1980s, before they could screen for it in blood. Hepatitis C has no known medical cure, and the person usually dies from the gradual breakdown of the liver. I resent such implication that because my mother had a blood transfusion before they could screen for hepatitis C, that she is "morally weak." Whoever said this (and I don't know who) disgusts me, or else phrased what they wanted to say in an atrocious way. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:48:34 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: al_Ghazaali on Women Assalamu alaikum, Thanks to Michael and Lily for their posts on al-Ghazali and women. I have read some al-Ghazali, and I find his view on women hard to stomach. I much, much, much prefer Rumi and Ibn Arabi. For some excellent excerpts from the writing by Ibn Arabi about women, I suggest the book "The Tao of Islam: a sourcebook on gender relationships in Islamic thought" by Sachiko Murata. Ibn Arabi also learned from women Sufi "shaykhas" (is that the right word?), according to what he writes in his book, "Sufis of Andalusia". Regarding Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, he says some good things which I like. However, I have also read somewhere (I don't remember where) that, regarding Tasawwuf, his brother Ahmad al-Ghazali was more advanced than Abu Hamid was. Does anyone know more about that, and have more information on Ahmad al-Ghazali? Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Steve Phillips Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:26:21 +0000 Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Fred Rice wrote: > I resent such implication that because my mother had a blood > transfusion before they could screen for hepatitis C, that she > is "morally weak." Whoever said this (and I don't know who) > disgusts me, or else phrased what they wanted to say in an > atrocious way. My heart grieves for the sadness of your mother's situation, and hopes her remaining time is chance to express the love she must need to hear so especially now. Can we let the O Faith posting be done with? All that needs to be said has been said. There was never any intent to hurt in the message, and the pain that has arisen lives for other reasons. If any would like to discuss other reasons for pain, I'm all ears. If we look back to the situation in the garden of eden, I believe that pain and suffering is thought by those more knowing than I to be the result of our disobedience. But in a way, the disobedience is that of our humanity, something we cannot avoid but must accept. I have been told that god holds us higher than angels, for when we are obedient, it comes at a great cost, as evidenced by the lives of our saints. love, steve ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:44:03 Subject: Re: al_Ghazaali on Women RE: The Ghazzali Brothers Abu Hamid's brother, Ahmad al-Ghazzali, is known (to us) through his treatise on ishq which was written in Farsi. His writings and teachings had a sizable influence on tasawwuf in the Eastern Islamic lands; espically in relation to the poetic imagery and symbolism (as well as the love-LOVE distinction) so characteristic of Classical Persian Sufi poetry. I remember reading in one place that he was a qalandar, but who knows? It would seem that he is important in that his name appears in many silsilahs of turuq which developed in the Eastern/NE Islamic lands after his death. We must remember that in the bigger picture Abu Hamid al-Ghazzali (Hujjat al-Islam) and Ahmad al-Ghazzali represent two very different approaches to Islam and Tasawwuf in general. Many scholars have made the distinction between the 'sober' and the 'drunken' among ahl al-Tasawwuf; and it would seem that such a designation provides us with a succient picture of the relative work and teachings of these two men. I have also read somewhere (I don't remember where) that, >regarding Tasawwuf, his brother Ahmad al-Ghazali was more advanced >than Abu Hamid was. Is Law more important than Love, or Love more than Law - it would seem that the every thoughtful answer would have to be relative to one's particular situation :) ---- Hope this helps- At your service, and always ready to discuss bookish stuff- Erik. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 23:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: meditation (fwd) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:01:09 +0800 (SST) From: Imaan Shivani Joshi cc: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: meditation In-Reply-To: <19960801221735.00d5b974.in@transprt.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Assalaamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu I am a new member, and... for the most part, for present at least, I would like to stay in the background:-) I have appreciated Br tanzen's posts on some of the poems by rumi; I do not have access to them here, but I have heard much good about them, so it is nice to see the compliments are not without reason:-) I wonder if any of you could give me some idea of meditation, what it involves, how one goes about it, if that is not being too personal. I really would love to know. I apologise if I have offended anyone by my questions. Wa 'alaikum salaam wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu Fee Amaan Allah, Wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi, sci30342@cobra.nus.sg If you want what Allah[swt] wants then there is no confusion as what Allah[swt] wants happens. From the moment you came into the world of being, a ladder was placed before you that you might escape. He who knows others is wise; he who knows himself is enlightened. [Tao Te Ching] ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 23:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tariqas digest (was Re: another test) Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Abbas B. Talib wrote: > As a person who seldom write and is a quiet and silent observer of the Tarigas, > I have noted that in many instances there are more than two copies of the same > thing. Recently I was on home leave. When I returned I was surprised to find > 1250 messages. I might also add that several of these copies were sent more than > once. I might also add several issues were not very significant in Islam > referring to making cookies, arguments between people on subjects such as > keeping beards, and women. Is there a form of editing and condensing the daily > messages into a summarized form and sent out once a week. In this way you can > get rid of the useless arguments and topics of no consequence. Thank you. The only option available currently is tariqas-digest. Tariqas-digest lumps together approximately 30,000 bytes worth of messages, and sends them out as a unit. it does not avoid duplication in posts, nor does it cut down on the amount of material -- just the number of separate messages that are received. To subscribe, send email to majordomo@world.std.com with the following text: subscribe tariqas-digest unsubscribe tariqas This will add you to the tariqas-digest list and remove you from tariqas. The best way to cut down on the amount of traffic to this list is for members to exercise care in what messages they send to the list, and to make sure they don't send multiple copies. That includes avoiding sending messages like: You're right I agree How are you doing, I haven't seen you for ages (personal messages) Habib could you please unsubscribe me from this list (please send those messages to me at habib@world.std.com rather than to the list) Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 01:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FW: Someone prayed for me... >Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:05:00 -0400 >From: Short, Braggnetta >To: McCray, Shelton; Forbes, Catherine; Patterson, Denise; Adams, Tracey; >Keith; Pat Short; Greene, Lisa; Orsini, Patty >Cc: Edwards, George; Don Barbee; Ray Brown; Johnson,Tammy; Wanda Ridley >Subject: Someone prayed for me... >Date: Tuesday, August 06, 1996 9:09AM > >" I said a Prayer For You Today" > > I said a prayer for you today >And know GOD must have heard. > I felt the answer in my heart > Although HE spoke no word. >I didn't ask for wealth or fame > I knew you wouldn't mind. >I asked HIM to send treasures > Of a far more lasting kind. >I asked that HE'D be near you > At the start of each new day >To grant you health and blessing > And friends to share your way. >I asked for happiness for you > In all things great and small >But it was for HIS loving care > I prayed the most of all. > >From: Braggnetta and the "GRIMES Family Reunion" > > ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 01:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Assalaamu alaikum, Steve wrote: > >... > >Can we let the O Faith posting be done with? All that needs to be >said has been said. There was never any intent to hurt in the >message, and the pain that has arisen lives for other reasons. > >... AMIN, I agree. AMIN, I believe. AMIN, Please? Muhsin ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:02:09 +0800 Subject: re: ghazalli Assalamualaikum, Thanks for the posts on Ghazalli. From the area of the planet, which respect Ghazali (the good and the bad), I find some of the comments highlight how 20th century mind read 11th century books. In a way, this how Ghazalli should be read. From my experience, living in a muslim country, where Ghazalli's books are still read in mosques, the common joke by the teacher is "this is a punishment for us muslims to still read this book, when it should be put into museums long time ago." and blah... blah... blah... the teacher continues with Ghazalli's first chapter of Ihya: Knowledge. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: padenski@juno.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 23:51:26 PST Subject: STAR RENGA (17 total) STAR RENGA (16 total) (5, 7, 5 beat to the frame drum) Now, Star Light, Star Bright, Rather than a million bucks I seek to find me. -- Wahid, age 40 Star lights a thousand eyes share with me your laughter through clear winter air. -- steve what's that twinkly in your eye must be love come down shining! -- yondanoota When I see the stars The clouds have passed And God winks at thee -- Lalla Stars, why do you blink? - --Though your eyes don't always see, Light is always there. -- Tansen-Muni angels testify root and offspring glorious bright and morning stars -- tanzen, ageless Morning star rising, The golden-faced Gautama On a stony shore -- Saki Zenzaki The star rises slowly It warms my face, and heals me My heart shines more. -- Morning BEar, quickly 50 Process: Transmutation of Essence. Manifestation of Seed. Sing your mortality----loudly. -- Rashida out of the vacuum subatomic particles stars bright that is us -- tanzen northern lights sweep horizon her eyes on fire leaping stardust shining there ....aarifa starlight shining bright grant this wish for me tonight set this heart on fire -- carol, not yet born All the long night without blinking I watch the stars and they watch me finally, my heart is there. -- steve, greyhair Knees bent in helming Huge, 'green' foam hissing below Stars guiding the masts -- Azad before the stars were born into our consciousness I am One with Thee -- woodsong, older than the trees sebelum bintang-bintang lahir dalam kesedaran kita Akulah Satu dengan-Mu --maarof >From a star's shining beam descend's a heavenly being filled with love a new life is born --Ruthie, new to grand-parenthood ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #96 ****************************