From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 13 04:06:13 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12953; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:06:13 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:06:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199510130806.AA12953@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From sarmad@clark.net Thu Oct 12 21:14:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from clark.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12939; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:06:11 -0400 Received: from sarmad-ppp.clark.net (sarmad-ppp.clark.net [168.143.2.233]) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA17153 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:14:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199510122114.RAA17153@clark.net> From: sarmad@clark.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:14:00 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112 who tariqas From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 13 08:27:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22823; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:27:30 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22748; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:27:21 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA23154 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:27:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:27:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199510132227.AA23154@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: WH@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Zen Pt 1 Cc: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Zen and the Way of the Warrior: (The Battle for Interior Mastery) Many people have asked over the years how Zen Buddhism became so intimately linked with the Samurai, the Martial Arts, and Bushido ("the Way of the Warrior"). Bushido does not mean the way of the aggressor or the way of the militarist. Bushido might be better translated as "the way of life with dignity," where dignity implies the most sincere faithfulness and deepest possible benevolence. At the core of Bushido, Zen, and the Martial Arts is the readiness to live a life of dignity and integrity to the fullest extent possible. To face life thoroughly, one must be able to surrender unhesitantly to each moment. Giving everything in each moment means, on a fundamental level, being prepared to die in each moment. Only by waging battle for interior mastery can anyone hope to become unrestrictedly prepared for life and death. What do Zen, the martial arts and "the Way of the Warrior" have in common? First they all squarely face the impermanence of life. Though we do not often allow our fragile mortality to be uppermost in our consciousness; nevertheless, this breath may be our last. The Apostle Paul said "I die daily." Zen teachers extol their students to "die on your cushion," and one of the greatest Japanese swordsmen Tsukahara Bokuden (1490-1572) said: For the samurai to learn There's one thing only, One last thing-- To face death unflinchingly. A warrior in battle faces death at any moment, and therefore knows, perhaps as well as anyone, the immediacy and preciousness of life. Of course, each of us consciously or unconsciously faces a life and death battle in every heart beat and in every breath. If, without the benefit of self-delusions, we were constantly aware of our own mortality, we would more likely be compassionate to ourselves and others. To be the most effective in battle the warrior must "master" fear. Fear is an internal response to a perceived threat. No one is free of fear; in fact, to be fearless would be a great hindrance, just as no one would in their right mind want to be incapable of feeling physical pain. Only by feeling pain can we be informed of what hurts. Only by feeling fear can we be informed of what we need to be vigilant about. To "master" fear requires that the warrior, martial artist, student of Zen, or any human hoping to be fully alive and aware, must first clearly and cleanly feel fear (or any feeling or sensation) directly and proportionally to the circumstances in which we find ourselves. To feel cleanly and clearly is in itself a tremendous accomplishment. We are all born with this talent; an infant completely feels just what is, nothing less, nothing more. However, as we grow older we naturally build defenses and develop delusions that "protect" us from feeling the vicissitudes of life so keenly. Our own defenses, delusions, ideas, concepts and attitudes then complicate our perception of what is, and either dilutes or amplifies our feelings and sensations disproportional to actual circumstances. For a warrior, or anyone hoping to live life fully, these distorted or confused perceptions can become a major impediment. So, the first step in mastering fear is to become free of distorted or confused perceptions arising from our own personal history or inattentiveness. This step is so much easier said than done. It can take years of concerted effort to partially unscramble our perceptions and free ourselves to observe life just as it is. The prolonged concerted effort that leads to "self" mastery and takes years to reach fruition is called practice. Practice can take many forms. In Zen, there is sitting practice (zazen), walking practice (kinhin), and working practice (samu). In Aikido, there is the way of harmony with one's core natural power. In the art of serving tea, there is Cha-no-yo , For the samurai there was Bushido, and in most indigenous cultures around the world there has been the "warrior's journey," demarcated by recurrent concentrated periods of practice (i.e. battle, dance or vision quests). All these forms of practice slowly and steadily break down the defenses and delusions that distort our perceptions and restore clean, clear, attentive observation to things as they are. Much of practice is dedicated to being present right where we are, here and now. In zazen (seaound of the wind, rain, bird-song, external "traffic," or internal "noise." Whatever arises is noticed with as little judgment, analysis or discrimination as possible. Slowly, very slowly, the Zen student develops the capacity to just sit, just breathe, just be here and now, independent of likes and dislikes. In Zen practice, kinhin is intersperced between long periods of sitting. During walking meditation we just walk, just take each step as it comes. Once, as infants, we fully appreciated theget Sound. When the weather permits, we do our kinhin outdoors in the forest along the nearby wet-lands, or on the beach. Occasionally, when walking slowly along the beach, we will file past a Great Blue Heron. These stately water birds have very long legs, and when they walk in the shallow water, any observer will be moved by the naturalness and dignity of their steps. When doing kinhin I try to allow the same kind of naturalness to appear in my steps by letting go of all preconceived ideas of riportant than zazen for helping Zen students to awaken to "Blue Sky Mind." Working meditation mainly consists of cleaning and preparing meals. Cleaning activities are usually sweeping, washing bowls and mopping floors. In Japan, the monks mop all the wooden floors of the temple each day by running a damp towel along the surfaces with their hands, back and forth, in bare feet, running in a low squat. When I trained in a Zen temple in Japan, during the autumn and winter of 1981-82, the monks spent tle, attended naturalness, where each path would blend naturally into its surroundings. While working, Zen students are encouraged to develop mindfulness towards the activity at hand, remaining as fully present as possible to what needs doing. -- q k From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 13 08:34:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26754; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:35:02 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26668; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:34:55 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA24784 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:34:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:34:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199510132234.AA24784@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: WH@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Zen pt2 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Once the famous Rinzai Zen Master Joshu (778-897) was petitioned by a sincere monk to be taught the deepest of Zen truths. Joshu replied first with a question; "Have you had your breakfast?" The monk replied affirmatively. "Then wash your bowls," respons doing. Ordinary life is the enlightened life, when hungry eat, after breakfast wash your bowls. Fortunately, this particular monk "got it" and had an insight. All of these practices arising out of Zen training, the martial arts, the way of tea, or other cultural contexts have the effect of slowly returning the practitioner to a direct, pristine natural awareness of things just as they are and developing an underlining readiness to respond to circumstances as they arise. These qualities of aw.T. Suzuki in his book Zen and Japanese Culture also relates the following anecdote about Bokuden: He had three sons, who were all trained in swordsmanship. He wanted to test their attainments. He placed a little pillow over the curtain at the entrance to his room, and it was so arranged that a slight touch on the curtain, when it was raised upon entering, would make the pillow fall right on one's head. Bokuden called in the eldest son first. When he approached he noticed the pillow on the cuas soon as he saw the pillow coming down, he caught it in his hands, and then carefully put it back where it had been. It was the third son's turn to touch the curtain. He came in brusquely, and the pillow fell right on his neck. But he cut it in two with his sword even before it came down on the floor. Bokuden passed his judgment: "Eldest son, you are well qualified for swordsmanship." So saying, he gave him a sword. To the second son he said, "Train yourself yet assiduously." But the younges that flowers into human dignity, integrity and compassion. Mastering fear first requires regaining a clear, clean, undisturbed view of things just as they are. As we have seen, this is not easy to come by, requiring years of practice that focuses on heightening awareness and fostering readiness. One of the most profound and tenacious distortions of clear perception is our own ego (that constellation of names, beliefs, attitudes, judgments, likes, dislikes, roles, fantasies and character types ness of "self" is a profound gift of the human condition, it is also one of our biggest liabilities. Rocks, trees, stars and most animals are not bothered by self-awareness, and these manifestations of the universe move naturally and freely in their course, as naturally as water running downhill. We humans, on the other hand, become easily confused about which way is up. Perceiving clearly without distortion is crucial, but even if we are perceiving the world relatively clearly, because we are The second step in mastering fear is learning (or relearning) how to let go, i.e., how to let go of all sensations as they arise in our consciousness without getting "stuck" or "fixated" on any of them. From the Eastern perspective, anything that can be perceived or observed is a kind of mental sensation; hence, a thought, feeling, physical sensation, hope, desire, dream, fantasy, insight, or even one's self-perception can be viewed as a kind of mental sensation. Whenever our mind rests, stops oreath can be our last, so if our mind is even temporarily stuckhere or there we are not free to be of benefit to either "self" or "other than self." Fear and anxiety are a kind of barometer of how stuck we are. When fear and anxiety are on the rise we can be pretty sure that one's mind has become stuck or attached to something. Instead of viewing increasing fear and anxiety as our enemy, it is far more useful to view these sensations as an ally which signals that we have become stuck on somethiperspective, the amount of fear and anxiety present can be viewed as therequisite "heat" or "pressure" necessary to free the system and get the mind flowing freely again. As we all know, it is really easy to become stuck on our "self." It is very difficult to face death, or fully face life, when we are attached to keeping our sense of an abiding self. Nothing is fixed, everything is in flux; yet, most humans never develop beyond a fixated (read stuck, limited, broken, i.e., neurotic) sense of seg the natural maturation process into adulthood. For whatever reasons, our culture and time are very poorly suited to fostering smooth free-flowing human development. I sincerely believe that ancient indigenous and aboriginal cultures were better at it than we are today. Nevertheless, it is easy to understand that as very intricate creatures our early development is both fragile and crucial. Yet, because we are so intricate, we are very adaptable creatures who learn how to compensate for manyt vulnerable, children may develop severe complexes that hold deeply conflicted hopes and desires for un-met, disallowed or traumatized needs in patterns of convoluted thoughts, ideals, dreams and fantasies. In other words, complexes compensate for losses by holding them in abeyance, a kind of unconscious limbo or homeostasis. When key developmental needs are not adequately met, complexes arise weighing us down and fostering a stuck, fixed, abiding sense of self that becomes progressively incapableegrate into more or less discreet sub-systems starting with idealized and vilified fixed images of who we are (or who others are). Because complexes are more or less unconscious manifestations of our psyche, we may never become aware of them until a particularly stressful environment draws them out producing some kind of unbalance, dis-order, or dis-ease. One "wonderful" aspect of practice is that in its concentrated form during a sesshin (Zen retreat), Aikido test, high tea ceremony, a battle, at any "deep art" has had to face themselves in ways they never imagined. Facing ourselves is what concentrated periods of practice are all about. Through training and practice our mostly unconscious shortcomings, our stuck, incomplete developmental patterns start to become self-evident; they become painfully conscious. With this painful expanded consciousness, comes a dawning understanding of where we have come from, and what we need to be about now. If over many years of time, one's practice do out of you," then it is probably not rigorous enough. In the course of deeply dedicated training, each of us will likely face one or more "dark nights of the soul" where nearly all seems lost in a morass of dark, conflicted confusion. A dark night indicates that a practitioner has uncovered a core complex. When in a dark night, one really feels the complexity of the complex. If you have ever been here you know what I'm talking about. I have definitely been here and I can tell you that it is noacing the dark night must become a warrior of mythic proportions. It is time to do "battle" with the demons of shame, self-doubt, judgment, self-deprecation, greed and hate that always seem to arise. As warriors we must learn not to be fooled by these demon aspects of ourselves. When I sit with psychotherapy clients in my practice, there is a small statue that I look at all day of the Bodhisattva Manjusri. He holds a sword in one hand and a sutra (Buddhist scripture) in the other. Manjusri's swo help but "win." Aikido students know that the best way to "defeat" the "enemy" (i.e. partner initiating the attack or uke) is to gently allow and firmly encourage the energy of the attacker to neutralize itself. This is what we must do with our own interior demons. Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori (1571-1646), another of Japan's great swordsmen told his students that the desire to get rid of whatever disease one is inflected with can become an obsession that makes a slave of the student. He says, "a sesshin we repeat them at least nine times a day. The first vow is to be of benefit to all sentient beings; to slay or be slain by the demonic aspects of ourselves will not do. The second vow says that we will relinquish all self-delusions; there are no greater delusions than the demons that arise out of the dark night. The third vow says that the number of gates to truth are immeasurable; therefore, every aspect of the universe is to become our teacher. The last vow acknowledges our complete fundamental demons show us how they arose as defenders to protect us from external criticism or abuse. We realize that we could protect ourselves from perceived threats of annihilation or abandonment by annihilating or abandoning our externally unwanted or unacceptable aspects before anyone else could. By witnessing and naming, rather than angrilyblaming and judging ourselves or others, we neutralize our demons. When they are neutralized we will touch the lost, rejected, stuck (obsessive, compulsive, cts to express themselves. This can become a whole new drama, but with firm, compassionate care, our repressed aspects can slowly integrate with our self-system, freeing the self-system of "hang-ups" or fixations, finally unknotting the complex. I warn any of you spiritual warriors out there, this takes a lot of tenacious patience. The caring for the stuck or repressed parts of ourselves is a lot like suddenly becoming foster-care parents of abused, abandoned, totally untrusting children. No onecoming a master means dropping the barriers between self and others so that you are never alone, and on another level means being always alone.) This is why we train with teachers and other practitioners. It is not in your self-interest or the interest of the community to have any shame in this, yet many do. Letting go of this shame is crucial for gaining true humility and true dignity. If you have the opportunity to train full-time in a Zendo or Dojo, take it, life is short. If you do not have t I have a practice that includes one hour of zazen daily, four week-long sesshins a year, and around an average of three extra hours of zazen on the weekends. Even after twenty years of training, this schedule does not include enough time with my Zen master, or enough concentrated time on my own to adequately turn my daily life into a full-time practice; therefore, I supplement my formal training with various mindfulness practices, most especially two hours of psychotherapy a week with a master theing perhaps no additional support would be necessary. Probably all of my dark nights could be contained and resolved within a monastic practice. Yet, I know of several people who powerfully combine Zen practice, Aikido training, and psychotherapy with a "modern" daily life. As one's self-system becomes unglued and unstuck, it becomes more capable to naturally and spontaneously respond to the environment without flinching, without holding back, and without giving more than is needed in a given sihe aim of any deep-art is to bring the practitioner to "beginner's mind." A beginner has no pretensions of being an expert, nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting one's all into the activity at hand. A beginner tends to bring a fresh response to any new activity. D.T. Suzuki puts it this way: To state it in terms of swordsmanship the genuine beginner knows nothing about the way of holding and managing the sword, and much less of his concern for himself. When the opponent tries to stmany other technical tricks -- which makes his mind "stop" at various junctures. For this reason whenever he tries to strike the opponent he feels unusually hampered; [he has lost altogether the original sense of innocence and freedom]. But as days and years go by, as his training acquires fuller maturity, his bodily attitude and his way of managing the sword advance toward "no-mind-ness" which resembles the state of mind he had at the very beginning of training when he knew nothing, when he was al of his teaching, and is devoid of all learning or scholarly acquisitions. When Zen talks about beginner's mind it is referring to one's original untarnished nature, where mind is free to flow without hindrance and "stops" nowhere. There is nothing wrong with thinking, analysis, or fine discrimination, but, as we all know, taking even an instant to "think" during a response will degrade its naturalness immensly. If while serving in tennis I think about my serve, I almost always double fault. Yes,ready to meet everything (including our last breath) is called the Mind of No-Mind or Mushin. From the Buddhist perspective a "self" free of attachment -- q k From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 13 15:38:39 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03077; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:38:47 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03053; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:38:43 -0400 Received: from sle6.asb.com (sle6.asb.com [165.254.128.76]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05872 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:38:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:38:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199510140138.UAA05872@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: [3] Noah's Angelic Light X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: [3] Noah's Angelic Light =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Excerpt from Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's <>, KAZI 1995. For all its strangeness, everything we had seen so far belonged to the three dimensions; we apprehended it with the senses of our physical bodies, or at least tried. Everyone felt that what lay behind the door, however, was going to be completely different and unprecedented and unimaginable. It must surely be from a fourth dimension, a door to Paradise, an interaction with the heavenly world itself, not only with one or two of its inhabitants or with the elements of fragrance and sound. In less than one second of the children's time they reached the door. Without their touching it, it opened by itself in front of them. We could see nothing through the door: no stairs leading to the street, no stone structure, not even ruins, nothing but an immense light. That light poured into the basement, sending in waves and waves of a visible energy carrying with it effects that reached the hearts; for we all felt a great effulgence of love and utter happiness in our hearts, a love we had never felt before in our lives. It did not equal even the most intense raptures of our adolescence. We were in a trance. The two children vanished in the light, no longer to be seen. All eyes were transfixed, casting impossible gazes at the disappearing children, but unable to follow them into the light. The union of the children with the light caused the light to change colors, like a radiant rainbow, and affected our states as well, as if we were now seeing the children move into paradise with the eyes of our hearts rather than those of our heads. A brief moment passed. The light was still there. Two children had gone into it, but now three were returning. They were holding hands. They seemed to saunter out of the fourth dimension of Paradise back into our third dimension.. The children looked airy and subtle, seemingly translucid, as if they were now angelic beings. Their own light kept changing like the light that was coming through the door. An innocent gesture, typical of children, assured us that it was them: they were holding hands and moving in a circle, chanting a rhyme: "We are the angels, we are the guardians, We are those who love you and care for you." Everyone heaved a sigh of relief and joy. We turned to each other gleefully, relishing both the sound and the meaning of that music carried by the children's voices. It was as if a new life had been opened to us in that basement, especially for the parents of the children. They had been trying to move from their places and to run and hug their children, but their efforts were in vain: they could not move. They were stuck in their places like stone statues. As the light began to diminish little by little, the people began to feel that their powers of movement were coming back to them. The state of ecstasy was lessening and abating in our bodies and our hearts. The children were slowing down in their caroling. They turned towards their parents and began to make their way back to them. All of us were looked at the third child, a little girl who jumped into the basement and ran to the lady who had been crying at first. We understood that this was the daughter she had been worried about for leaving her on the tenth floor of the building. Everyone had forgotten about my still-unconscious sister, including myself, instead looking at the children and expecting to hear from them some description of what they had seen. The joy of the parents cannot be described. The lady of the tenth floor who had thought that her child was lost with the rest of the building now was seeing her running towards her and holding her in her arms, and she had not even forgotten to bring her Barbie doll with her! The mother was hugging her child, kissing her, and mumbling unintelligible words of thanks and prayers, unable for emotion to speak coherently. During that joyful event, some other people and I were trying to reanimate my sister after we ourselves had just regained our normal state of consciousness. Others, however, were asking the little girl to tell how she had managed to come unscathed from the rubble and destruction outside. I was losing nothing of the many questions that were beginning to burst out from every mouth, pricking up my ears to hear any answer when it came. At the same time I was throwing some cologne water on my sister's face and tapping it lightly, comforting her back to health. The little girl was speaking in a mixed state of happiness and fear: she was happy because of what she had seen in the world of angels, and she was afraid from the intensity and emotion of the people's questioning that had suddenly erupted around her. She was surprised at their agitation and at the reaction of her mother, not realizing what all the fuss was about; she had just been visiting with her friends, the angels, and now here she was. What about the tenth floor? What about your room? But the little girl only said: "Mom, why are you crying? Why are you kissing me as if you had not seen me for a week?" The mother kept hugging her dear child, continuing her muted, grateful prayers. The little girl began to hug her Barbie doll, exactly as her own mother was hugging her. Each feared the loss of the little baby whom she held dear: the mother feared for her little daughter, the daughter feared for her little Barbie doll. The little girl said: "I was in my bed when I felt someone touching me and calling me. I thought it was mom, but I never felt myself carried up and held that way before! I opened my eyes and I smelled a very nice breeze filling my room. I saw a lady coming to me, accompanied by an angel. Where my room had been there was now a great space without end and without beginning. The lady took me by the hand, and the angel carried both of us. I was about to cry, and the lady said to me: =91Why are you crying, sweetheart?' I said: =91I forgot Barbie.' The lady said: =91No, she is here with you, look under your arm.' I looked, and I found that my Barbie was with me. Then I looked around and began to shout: =91Where is my mother? What is happening? Where are you taking me?' And they said: =91We are taking you to your mother. We are your guardian angels.' Then I met the two children who were waiting for me in the hallway, where everything was light. The angels taught us a song and we began to play with them and go around. It was so nice! Then they told us that we had to go back to our parents and we came here." The children did not seem to realize the extraordinary nature of the little girl's account, and of their entire experience of the last hour. We looked at them, then looked at each other in amazement and disbelief. Surely other people had to be told all this. Would they believe us? We did not wish the moment to end. We wanted to hear more. All these thoughts came to us at the same time, and above the din of these reflections one clear thought emerged and imposed itself: angels had come to our rescue and had brought us this precious moment of relief and mercy. We had not forgotten the one among us who was lying on the ground: my sister. She was slowly coming to, and looked around her to see if the vision was still present. Someone handed me a cup of water with some drops of rose water in it. I gave the glass to my sister to moisten her tongue and quiet her nerves. She was at first unable to relate anything of what had happened to her. She drank some more water and slowly took in the surroundings, feeling more secure and happy as she came to understand the reunion scene that was taking place before her. My sister then looked at me, and I understood from her eyes that she was ready to tell me what had happened to her and what she had observed under the touch of the angelic vision she had experienced. Everyone became quiet again, wanting to hear her story as well. It seemed like the soldier's rest after the excitement of battle. If someone had dropped a needle on the floor you could have heard it, although the fighting was still going on outside. Inside, the atmosphere of peace and happiness had disconnected us completely from the bedlam of war. As she prepared to speak, everyone began to anticipate great news of joy and deliverance from her as well, although they had not heard anything yet. She said: "Praise God! He heals and he forgives. As soon as you saw me fainting, I woke up somewhere else and was looking at everyone. I felt like a patient undergoing anesthesia, but the =91going under' was spiritual . The angels were operating on me. I saw three of them: one on my right side, one on my left, and one above me. The latter one said to me: =91We are the healing angels, and we came to help you by God's permission. Nothing prevents us from curing anyone who seeks our help, and here we are!'" "They were holding my hands on my two sides, and I felt a state of peace in my whole body. It made me feel light and relaxed. The familiar pain of many years of cancer treatment had left me. Then the angel above me showed me a staff of light which he was holding in his hand. He told me: =91There are points in the human body which, if anyone touches them, will cause healing in the entire body. I am going to touch them with this needle of light.' He proceeded to direct his staff at several points over my body, touching one cell-point each time and healing the cells that corresponded to it. =91These dead cells are given life another time through this touch,' he said." "The operation extended over my entire body. I was able to count 365 different points to which he turned his staff. The angel said to me: =91Each point represents a day of the year. If you keep your body balanced through that year, all your years will be balanced, and your life's age will be balanced as well.'" We had all been overwhelmed by the events that had happened, and now the secret knowledge which had been revealed to us added to our amazement. My sister continued: "The angel advised me that I must follow a certain diet which I must not leave for the rest of my life. In order to balance these life-points in the body, I must drink every day, in the early morning, before eating or drinking anything, a small cup of onion juice which will revive the dead cells that the cancer thrives upon to extend over the body. The angel said that this recipe should be followed by all who suffer from cancer." We continued to listen to my sister's account of her angelic encounter, drinking in the many details which confirmed and reinforced the veracity of her experience in the light of the little girl's parallel journey. Each person in the basement was transformed that day. What irony that the day which had begun as one of the darkest in our lives, now seemed destined to be remembered as a day of special joy and blessing, to be recounted for a long time to come as one of the best in our lives! The people continued to recount their feelings and hear each other's impressions, seemingly for hours. When the excitement abated, three hours had passed, and a lull had replaced the chaos of indiscriminate shelling outside. Everybody prepared to leave the shelter and go back, as much as possible, to the normalcy of daily life. When we came out we saw the extent of the damage. We realized that we had also been part of the angel's miraculous deed, as we had been spared and our basement protected from the bombing which had reached every spot around it. We left the city and made our way to my brother's house in the North of the country. There we healed our wounds and rested for a while. My sister faithfully followed the angel's recipe. After three months, she went back to her doctors at the American University of Beirut. To everyone's surprise, there was no=7F trace of cancer left in her entire body. No-one could explain what had taken place and the doctors were mind-boggled. They did not even know how to trace the process of healing and found themselves unable either to describe it or to duplicate it. Of course, they took the causes of healing forwarded by my sister, the angel's operation and the recipe with a big grain of salt, although she was like them a medical doctor. "Our colleague has had great luck," they said, "and is under the emotional stress of an unexpected, miraculous recovery." Miraculous it was, but more literally so than they could possibly imagine. From tariqas-approval Sun Oct 15 04:40:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22339; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 04:40:01 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 04:40:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199510150840.AA22339@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: A >From padenski@mail.earthlink.net Wed Oct 14 18:40:43 1995 Return-Path: Received: from atlas.earthlink.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22329; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 04:39:59 -0400 Received: from PADENSKI by atlas.earthlink.net (8.6.11/) id BAA22482; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 01:40:43 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 01:40:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199510150840.BAA22482@atlas.earthlink.net> X-Sender: padenski@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Habib Rose From: Ruthie Roberts Subject: What happened to mail? Dear Habib, I haven't recieved any mail from Tariqas since Thursday, am I still on the mailing list? If I'm not, could you please re-subscribe me, thank you. Peaceful Blessings, Ruthie "Onward toward Love, traveling through the Beauty of Life, reaching out to touch the realm of Light!" From tariqas-approval Sun Oct 15 22:18:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11853; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from columba.UDAC.UU.SE by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11829; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:15:49 -0400 Received: from strix.UDAC.UU.SE by columba.udac.uu.se with SMTP id AA22386 (5.67b/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sun, 15 Oct 1995 17:15:45 +0100 Received: from [130.238.46.46] by strix.udac.uu.se (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13060; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 17:15:42 +0100 X-Sender: patmf@strix.udac.uu.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 17:18:26 +0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: Mohammad.Farooque@patologi.uu.se Subject: Re: female ulama Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >At 12:08 PM 10/12/95 +0100, you wrote: >Have you looked into our bookstore. There is an interesting book about Noor >un Nissa Khan, the daughter of Inayat Khan and a heroine of World War II. >She is th only woman ever to be awarded both the French Croix de Guerre and >The George Cross from UK. > >Warm regards > >>Assalamu alaikum! >> >>Who knows or already read books or articles from female ulama? >>I would like to have a list of publications of the female ulama as well >>as i am interested to get a list about publications from female muslims in >>general. Either in English, French, German or (worst case to me) Arabic. >> >>maa salama >> >>Saleh >> > > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net Salam, Can someone provide me brief information about this lady (Noor un Nissa Khan, the daughter of Inayat Khan). Farooque Dr Mohammad Farooque Laboratory of Neuropathology UAS, 75185 Sweden Phone and Fax. 46-18-421921 From tariqas-approval Sun Oct 15 02:37:24 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21787; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:37:28 -0400 Received: from homer17.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21765; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 12:37:26 -0400 Received: by homer17.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.10/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA67201; Sun, 15 Oct 95 09:37:25 -0700 X-Sender: lilyan@homer17.u.washington.edu Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Fwd: Grandmother midwives/birth and death(long post) (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum The net has been very quiet recently. I thought this post from the midwife list may be of interest to some. It was in response to another post in a thread about midwife ancestors, many of whom practiced care of the dying as well. with love to all Lily ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:57:39 -0400 To: midwife@csv.warwick.ac.uk Subject: Fwd: Grandmother midwives/birth and death(long post) Thanks, Elizabeth, for this wonderful account. I'm forwarding it for everyone else to read. I've often thought the veil between birth and death is thin. --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Grandmother midwives/birth and death(long post) Date: 95-10-08 21:30:24 EDT I was intrigued re: your post that your grandmother was not only a midwife, but attended all the deaths in her community. My wonderful father suffered a long, lingering and awful death from metastatic prostate cancer. He died March 2 of this year. The day after he was hooked up with the hospice nurses home care (my mom had done all his care prior to this...17 years after his diagnosis) I planned to see him. I was terribly distraught and conflicted regarding what to do, say, be. Although he was at home, getting up and dressed each day, he had become incontinent, did not eat, and was unable to drink. One of the purposes of my visit was to try out a number of babies cups to see if that would help him. My last patient of that day was a postpartum check. The woman I saw blessed me with a copy of the book "Women in Praise of the Sacred". She said that I had made her feel very close to God during her birth.The book she gave me was a compilation of women's sacred writings...different faiths, times and traditions, but all made the connection between life and death, birth and dying. I skimmed the entire book before I went to see my dad. It taught me that the birthing and dying processes were really one and the same. They both involve pain, transformation, mystery and relinquishment of control. They both result in amazing spiritual growth . After I read this book, I realized that I could be with my dad the same way I could be with a woman in labor...not trying to understand or control, but just being with. I spent a wonderful afternoon with my father, the last time I was to see him alive. He died at home the next day, and although my sister called me when death appeared imminenent, he was dead when I arrived 50 minutes later (sort of like missing a precipitous birth!!!) My mom had a bunch of forsythia branches in the room where he spent his last days...do you have them in Indiana? In the past I would have called them dead sticks, but that night I realized that what I believed to be dead sticks, would be wondrous yellow flowers, and were so appropriate to be at his bedside. At his memorial service, his hospice nurse told me and my mom that when she graduated from nursing school, she wanted to be a midwife. Then she said that she decided to go into hospice nursing because, as she said, they are actually the same thing. Oh, how much I learned at my fathers deathbed. How I came to realize that life, death, dying and being born require the same skills , faith and relinquishment of our control. I gave the eulogy at my father's memorial service, incorporating much of what I've shared with you. My minister used my eulogy for his Easter sermon. Share this if you wish with the midwifery list...I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to post to the list at large...but feel really strongly that your grandmother's participation in birth as well as death speaks to her support of the transforming moments of our lives. From tariqas-approval Sun Oct 15 10:47:03 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19809; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 14:47:05 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19782; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 14:47:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 14:47:03 -0400 Message-Id: <199510151847.AA19782@world.std.com> Received: from line103.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 15 Oct 1995 14:53:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: female ulama Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 05:18 PM 10/15/95 +0500, you wrote: Dear Dr. Farooque, Quoting from the back cover of the book, which is available in our bookstore: "As a harpist she had been heard at the Salle Erard. Her stories were appearing on the children's page of Le Figaro and broadcast on Radiodiffusion Francaise, her TWENTY JATAKA TALES (also in our bookstore) were being brought out by a London publisher; she was founding a children's newspaper. When the Germans invaded France in 1940, she came to England with her family, volunteered for the WRAF and was later recruited into SOE, which infiltrated agents into enemy occupied territory. By moonlight in 1943, she was landed in a field in France, where as "Madeleine" she was to serve as raido operator to the group in the Paris area. Within a few days of her arrival, almost all the members of this group were arrested, in the most devestating coup the Germans made. Overnight the poste-Madeleine became the most important in France, being almost the only radio link between France and England. For four months she carried out this extremely dangerous work, assisting both the English and french resistance groups. Then she was betrayed to the Sicherheitsdienst and as a prisoner of importance was held at their HQ on the Avenue Foch. After a daring attempt to escape, via the roof, she refused to give parole and was sent to Germnany, where she was kept for most of the time in chains, before being shot at Dachau. She was posthumously awarded the George Cross and the Croix de Guerre." Thank you for your interest in this heroine and warm regards, > > > >Salam, > >Can someone provide me brief information about this lady (Noor >un Nissa Khan, the daughter of Inayat Khan). > >Farooque > >Dr Mohammad Farooque >Laboratory of Neuropathology >UAS, 75185 Sweden > >Phone and Fax. 46-18-421921 > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 02:45:24 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24632; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 07:45:11 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24618; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 07:45:09 -0400 Received: from asb13 (sls3.asb.com [165.254.128.13]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00294 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 07:45:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 07:45:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199510161245.HAA00294@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: msa: (FWD) Dalail al-Khayrat X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >X-POP3-Rcpt: f_haddad@UNiX >Return-Path: <@QUCDN.QueensU.CA:msa@eleceng.ee.queensu.ca> >Sender: msa-request@htm3.ee.queensu.ca >Reply-To: asifdhar@midway.uchicago.edu >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 14:30:24 -0400 >From: msa-request@htm3.ee.queensu.ca >Subject: msa: (FWD) Dalail al-Khayrat >To: msa@htm3.ee.queensu.ca > >Hdate: Saturday 19 Jumaada al-awal 1416 A.H. >Number: msa/14Oct95/18627 >Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam 'ala Rasulillah > >Below is a forwarded posting. Please note that postings to >the MSA-Net should be sent to . >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 95 12:21:37 CDT >From: Asif Dhar >Subject: Dalail al-Khayrat >Message-Id: > >Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem > >I am happy to bestow on MSA-Net the gift of the translation from the original >Arabic of Imam al-Jazuli's "Dalail al-Khayrat", one of the most commonly- >read and beloved books of praise and supplication on the Prophet (saws). >This translation was produced at the Oxford Center for Islamic Studies, an >Islamic research center sponsored by King Abdul Aziz University of Saudi >Arabia and by the University of Brunei. The translation is extremely true >to the original, as much as can be said for any translation. I intend to >post one or two pages of this translation daily for the benefit of the >readers. > >salam alaykum, > >--asif > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The Opening Supplication > >In the name of Allah, All-Merciful, the Mercy-Giving > >The blessings and peace of Allah be upon our master Muhammad his Family and >His Companions. > >O God, for the sake of the honour of Your Prophet, our master Muhammad, >Allah's blessings and peace be uponhim in the sight of You and for the sake >of his position in Your Presence, and for the sake of Your love for him and >his >love for You, and for the sake of the secret which is between You and him >I ask You to bless and grant peace to him his family and his Companion >and that you double my love for him and acquaint me with his reality and >rank; >make me fit to follow him and uphold his manners an dhis way; join me with >him and allow me a vision of him and encourage me with his conversation free >of all hindrances, attachments, means and veils pleasing my ears with the >delights of his addressing me! > >And prepare me to meet him and make me fit for his service! > >And make my request for Your blessing him a perfect and absolutely pure and >purified shining light which dispels all darkness and gloom, all doubt and >association, all unbelief, all falsehood and all iniquity and make it a means >of my increasing in sincerity and a way of obtaining the Highest Station of >Sincerity and Distinction so that there remains for me no lord but You and >so that I am fit for Your Presence and I am one of Your Distinguished People >holding fast to his manners and his way. Allah's blessings and peace be >upon him, his family, his Companions and all the People of the House at >every moment and on every occasion. > >O Allah, O Light, O Truth, O Manifest One (three times). > >___________________________ >asifdhar@midway.uchicago.edu > > From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 17:16:06 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04512; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:10:01 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04394; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:09:55 -0400 Received: from venus.dur.ac.uk by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 17:09:38 +0100 Received: from orwell.dur.ac.uk by venus.dur.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Oct 95 17:09:13 BST Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:16:06 +0100 (BST) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: sufi@think.net Subject: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu 'alaykum, The miraculous feats [caramat] of the Sufi Masters represent a continuation of the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allah Ta'ala 'alayhi wa sallam) and have the same spiritual function that the Prophetic miracles had. Through these miracles the Sufi Master coveys various messages to his murids, teaches them, and strengthens their belief. The miracles of the Sufi Masters are not confined to certain forms of phenomena or events, they could come in various form. From the scientific point of view most miracles are very difficult to document and study because they are mainly passing events, usually experienced individually. Miracles can happen suddenly and at any time, whereas science is mainly successful in studying phenomena and events the time and place of occurrence of which can be predicted in advance. Nevertheless, there are certain Sufi miracles that readily lend themselves to scientific investigation. Some Sufi Masters confer on their murids baraca [blessing] that enables them to perform feats that reveal physical abilities that transcend by far the normal abilities of the human body, such as inflicting serious injuries in the body yet with impunity. The most famous of these Deliberately Caused Bodily Damage (DCBD) feats is inserting sharp instruments, such as skewers and daggers, into various parts of the body. However, the murid does not feel pain nor suffer bleeding and infection. Additionally, the wounds heal immediately after removing the instrument from the body. These feats can readily be scrutinized under controlled laboratory conditions. Paramann Programme Labs (PPL) which is based in Amman-Jordan specializes in studying the Sufi miracles in general and the medical miraculous aspects of DCBD phenomena in particular. PPL is currently involved in a large project of documenting miracles of the current Sufi tariqas everywhere. We have already studied a number of tariqas in some African countries. The complete work will be published in several classified volumes. We would like to know of any tariqa that has miraculous practices such as DCBD feats or others and would like to document them. If need be we can arrange for a specialized team to visit any place where such feats are practiced. If you would like to arrange for such a visit to your tariqa or require further information please contact the following address: Dr. J. N. Hussein (Director) Paramann Programme Labs P. O. Box 310087, Al-Mahatta Amman 11131, Jordan. Fax: (9629) 635 950. If you have any relevant literature, photos ....etc which illustrate or describe miraculous practices of your tariqa and would like to include them in the encyclopedia that is being prepared then we would be thankful and pleased to do so. If you have any query please let me know. With best wishes to ALL of you. Louay From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 12:45:12 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08060; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:45:12 -0400 Received: from kantti.Helsinki.FI by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07981; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 12:45:09 -0400 Received: from katk.helsinki.fi (katk.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.2]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA13802 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 18:45:03 +0200 Received: from KATK/SpoolDir by katk.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 95 18:46:09 EET Received: from SpoolDir by KATK (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 95 18:46:06 EET From: "Morteza Elmolhoda" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 18:46:00 EET DST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: A Message to Majida (Mary Ann Danner-Fadae) Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <61B8C25646@katk.helsinki.fi> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Majida Assalaamu Alaikum va Rahmatullah va Barakatuh I have received your mail. I have tried several times to send you a mail, but there is seemingly somthing wrong with your e-mail system. Please send me your new e-mail address if there is any. Blessings Morteza From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 09:36:46 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09546; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:48:26 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09429; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:48:20 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA04828; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:47:49 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA07407; Mon, 16 Oct 95 16:50:15 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA13923; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:36:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 16:36:46 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9510162336.AA13923@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Hazrat Bayazid Bistami [pt. 3] Cc: mateens@sybase.com Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Bayazid al-Bistami continued... [part 3 of 3] Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami (r) I have planted love in my heart, and shall not be distracted until Judgment Day. You have wounded my heart when You came near me. My desire grows, my love is bursting. He has poured me a sip to drink. He has quickened my heart with the cup of love. Which He has filled at the ocean of friendship. Bayazid. [excerpted from "The Naqshbandi Sufi Way: History and Guidebook of the Saints of the Golden Chain", by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, KAZI Publications, Chicago, 1995.] [Sayiddina Ja'far as-Sadiq] passed on the secret of the Golden Chain to his successor, Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami,...] They asked him, "describe your day and describe your night." He said "I don't have a day and I don't have a night, because day and night are for those who have characteristics of creation." He said, "Hunger is a cloud. If a servant becomes hungry, God will shower his heart with wisdom." He said, "If God gave me permission for intercession, first I will intercede for those who harmed me and those who denied me." They said to him, "the key for Paradise is 'laa ilaha ill-Allah' [witnessing that there is no god except God] He said, "it is true, but the key opens the lock. The lock of 'laa ilaha ill-Allah' is four: - a tongue which doesn't lie nor backbite - a heart without betrayal - a stomach without haraam or doubtful provision - deeds without desire nor innovation." He said, "the ego or self always looks at the world and the spirit always looks at the next life and gnosis is always directed to God, Glorious and Exalted. Whoever's self defeats him is from those who are destroyed. and whoever soul is victorious over his self, he is from the pious, and whoever's gnosis overcomes his self, is from the God-fearing." He said, "If God will give me permission to intercede for all the people of my time I will not be proud, because I am only interceding for a piece of clay." ad-Dailami said, "One time I asked Abdur Rahman bin Yahya about the state of trust in God (tawakkul). He said, "If you put your hand in the mouth of a lion, don't be afraid of other than God.' I went in my heart to visit and ask Bayazid about this matter. I knocked and I heard from inside, 'Wasn't it enough what Abdur Rahman said to you. Because you came only to ask and not with the intention of visiting me.' I understood and I came again another time one year later, knocking at his door. This time he answered, 'welcome my son, this time you came to me as a visitor and not as a questioner.'" They asked him "when does a man become a man?" He said, "when he knows the mistakes of his self and he busies himself in correcting them." He said, "I was twelve years the blacksmith of my self, and five years the polishing the mirror of my heart and for one year I was looking in that mirror and I saw on my belly a girdle. I tried hard to cut it and I spent twelve years in that effort. Then I looked in that mirror and I saw inside my body a girdle. I spent five years cutting it. Then I spent one year looking at what I had done. And God opened for me the vision of all creations. And I saw all of them dead. And I prayed four takbiras of funeral prayer over them." And he said one time: "If the Throne and what are around it and what is in it was placed in the corner of the heart of a Knower, it will be lost c ompletely inside it." And one time al-'Abbas ibn Hamza said, "I prayed behind Abayazid the noon prescribed prayer, and when he raised his hands to say 'Allahu Akbar' he was unable to pronounce the words, fearing form God's Holy Name and his entire body was trembling and the sound of bones breaking came from him and I was so surprised and fear came to my heart." Abayazid died in 261 H. It is said he is buried in two places, one is Damascus and the other is Bistam in Persia. Then the secret was passed was passed from Abayazid al-Bistami to Abul Hassan al-Kharqani. Bayazid al-Bistami in the Grave =============================== [An excerpt from the book "Angels Unveiled: A Sufi Perspective", by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, Kazi Publications, Chicago, 1995.] Abu Yazid was one of those who carried the power of unveiling ("kashf"). When he died and they took him to the grave, someone saw him in a dream, and he told him: "The two angels came to me (and asked me) and I answered them (to the question, "Who is your Lord?"): 'Tarihun bayna yadayh,' "I am lying helpless before Him, so why do you ask me?! But ask Him: 'Am I His servant?' And if He says to you: 'Yes,' then I have to be honored and lifted up to the highest stations in Paradise." The two angels said: "This is strange discourse that makes one wonder. What does it mean?" Abu Yazid replied: "Don't wonder so much at my words. I have words to cause you wonder more! When God Almighty brought me forth from Adam's loins and asked him and all his descendants: 'Am I not your Lord?' I was of those who said: 'Yes, you are our Lord.' Where were you at that time? Were you present there?" The angels replied: "No." He continued: "If you were not present, and I still remember that day as if it were yesterday, then leave me alone and don't interfere between me and Him!" One of the angels said to the other: "This is Abu Yazid. He lived drunk with love of God, and he died drunk with the same love of God, and he was placed in his grave drunk with the love of God. When he is called on the Judgment Day, he will be drunk with the love of God." (Copyright KAZI Publications & Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, 1995) From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 16:27:16 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17571; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:33:43 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15889; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:27:25 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA03153 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:27:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:27:16 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951016202714_46257335@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: thank you for the information here! some questions 1. what does the closing salutation Louay mean? or is that a personal name? 2. Would this gentleman (Dr. Hussein) have an email address, for those that might want to contact him with questions or information, directly? 3. I take it that ordinary miracles don't count here. (The way a master eats when hungry, sleeps when tired, ties his shoelaces attentively and caringly, and so forth) This is not meant sarcastically, but, perhaps, humorously... Perhaps you want more like floating in air, or putting pins or knives in the skin without bleeding, or being two places at the same time.... Is that what the Sufi teachings are aimed at? I'm getting confused and would welcome any enlightenment on this... in peace and may there be a good realization in your project! Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-10-16 12:12:25 EDT, you write: > > Paramann Programme Labs (PPL) which is based in Amman-Jordan specializes in > >studying the Sufi miracles in general and the medical miraculous aspects of >DCBD phenomena in particular. PPL is currently involved in a large >project of documenting miracles of the current Sufi tariqas everywhere. >We have already studied a number of tariqas in some African countries. The >complete work will be published in several classified volumes. We would >like to know of any tariqa that has miraculous practices such as DCBD feats >or >others and would like to document them. If need be we can arrange for a >specialized team to visit any place where such feats are practiced. If you >would like to arrange for such a visit to your tariqa or require further >information please contact the following address: > > Dr. J. N. Hussein (Director) > Paramann Programme Labs > P. O. Box 310087, Al-Mahatta > Amman 11131, Jordan. > Fax: (9629) 635 950. > > If you have any relevant literature, photos ....etc which illustrate or >describe miraculous practices of your tariqa and would like to include >them in the encyclopedia that is being prepared then we would be thankful and > >pleased to do so. If you have any query please let me know. > > With best wishes to ALL of you. > > >Louay > > > From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 17 12:56:44 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28737; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 06:57:57 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28635; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 06:57:31 -0400 Received: from venus.dur.ac.uk by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:57:26 +0100 Received: from altair (altair.dur.ac.uk) by venus.dur.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Oct 95 11:57:17 BST Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:56:44 +0100 (BST) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <951016202714_46257335@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hello Jinavamsa and everybody, > 1. what does the closing salutation Louay mean? or is that a personal name? This has really made me laugh from the heart. Probably because my name is familiar to me I seem to think that it should be so to everyone :-). > 2. Would this gentleman (Dr. Hussein) have an email address, for those that > might want to contact him with questions or information, directly? Unfortunately, as far as I know Jordan is not on the internet yet, though I have heard that they might establish some communication in the very near future. I posted the message on his behalf but I am affiliated with PPL so you are welcome to direct whatever queries to me. > 3. I take it that ordinary miracles don't count here. (The way a master eats > when hungry, sleeps when tired, ties his shoelaces attentively and caringly, > and so forth) This is not meant sarcastically, but, perhaps, humorously... > Perhaps you want more like floating in air, or putting pins or knives in the > skin without bleeding, or being two places at the same time.... For the murid, there is a useful lesson to be learned from each and every move and behavior of his Master. The lessons that miracles give do not exclude those that are delivered through ordinary feats. > Is that what > the Sufi teachings are aimed at? I'm getting confused and would welcome any > enlightenment on this... Performing miracles is not what Sufism aims at. Miracles are one means among others, but definitely they are not the goal. In fact, Sufi Masters have invariably warned their murids against making miracles the aim of their seeking. This is one form of a general warning against taking anything as an aim except Allah Ta'ala who is THE aim. Best wishes. Louay From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 17 04:09:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07179; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:21:11 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07149; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:21:08 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA21107; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:20:35 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA15996; Tue, 17 Oct 95 11:23:02 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA14408; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:09:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:09:34 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9510171809.AA14408@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Special Event Cc: mateens@sybase.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: salaam alaykum: In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate ***INVITATION TO ALL*** Presentation of one of the Relics of our Master Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and on his family and his companions. When: 11 am, Sunday October 22, 1995 Where: Hazrat Belal Masjid 3824 Glenmoor Fremont, California for directions call (415) 943-8639 What: Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani along with the Naqshbandi Mawlid Group will present one of the blessed relics of our Master Muhammad, peace be upon him, for the partaking of blessings in the manner of the Companions of the Prophet (s). Noon prayers will be held at 1:15 pm. All are asked to wear modest clothing as this event will take place in a house of worship. ______________________________________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html [in 9 languages] ______________________________________________________________________ From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 17 15:32:20 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06629; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:32:21 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06621; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:32:20 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA17494 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:32:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 19:32:20 -0400 From: SheikhDin@aol.com Message-Id: <951017193219_47109750@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Brothers and Sisters, Asalaamu Aleikum. Among other things, in a message dated 95-10-17 01:51:03 EDT, Louay writes: -clip- < Paramann Programme Labs (PPL) which is based in Amman-Jordan specializes in studying the Sufi miracles in general and the medical miraculous aspects of DCBD phenomena in particular.> -clip- I am very sorry, but I feel compelled to state that I strongly feel that this type of pursuit misses the "real point" of The Practice, The Path and The Master in regards to Sufism and Islam for that matter. The Qu'ran gives completely clear indications as to which "Signs" to observe and to regard as the true miracles. Certainly they are all around us. There has been plenty of documentation regarding "miracles" cited in the Books of Allah, other scriptures, first hand accounts, poetry as well as the words and actions of Messengers and Anbiyaa (previous Prophets). Did that satisfy the people before Ibrahim, Musa, Nuh, Lut, Isa just to name a few? Does the modern day "evidence" of a depleting environment, fractured ozone, poisoned air and water and poluted food stop the over-indulgence of a materialistic, consumer driven society rampaged by cancer and heart disease. What is the real good-for-all of "documenting" scientifically speaking "miracles". Does it really make a true believer out of anybody? And . . . what if the miracles turn out to be explainable "scientific" phenomenon? Are they not miracles any longer? And what if the "miracles" can't be explained? Does that make them "true spiritual" miracles? And what is magic, sorcerey or simply sophisticated psychic parlor games? And where does this all stop? Do we have a tariqat miracle competion? Our miracles are better that your miracles. What if someone never even saw a miracle, or had a miracle ever? Are they still okay? And who becomes a better person, better Muslim, more heartfelt and closer to Allah's Peace in the process? Better we should concentrate our attention and energy on Allah the One, and in so doing serve Allah by serving Allah's creation. "Allah knows all sees all. Surely He is the best Knower." Let's keep our eye on the ball. There is more important fish to fry so to speak then cataloguing miracles. Let us use our creative energy to help solve some real world problems, and in so doing show Allah our dedication, love and surrender. Let us get on our knees after a hard days work and beg Allah for forgiveness because we have forgotten Him and thought for a moment _we_ were actually doing something. Please forgive my tone. Istaghfiruallah. I bid you Peace and Salaam. Thank you for your thoughtfull attention. Please don't take offense. :-) Wa Salaam, Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 17 23:35:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29266; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:35:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:35:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199510180335.AA29266@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From hoon@apk.net Tue Oct 17 19:35:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: from junior.wariat.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29234; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:35:30 -0400 Received: from [199.18.253.211] (hoon.apk.net [199.18.253.211]) by junior.wariat.org (8.6.10/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA07016 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:35:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:35:20 -0400 X-Sender: hoon@junior.wariat.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: hoon@apk.net info From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 18 13:27:04 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23427; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:19:53 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23027; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:19:41 -0400 Received: from venus.dur.ac.uk by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:19:03 +0100 Received: from deneb (deneb.dur.ac.uk) by venus.dur.ac.uk; Wed, 18 Oct 95 13:18:54 BST Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:27:04 +0100 (BST) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <951017193219_47109750@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu 'alaykum Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah and tariqas readers, > I am very sorry, but I feel compelled to state that I strongly feel that this > type of pursuit misses the "real point" of The Practice, The Path and The > Master in regards to Sufism and Islam for that matter. The Qu'ran gives > completely clear indications as to which "Signs" to observe and to regard as > the true miracles. Certainly they are all around us. Yes, signs were, are, and will be around us, but miracles occurred, still occur, and will occur. During the years through which the Holy Qur'an, which talks about signs, was being revealed miracles were also occurring. There is no contradiction. > There has been plenty of documentation regarding "miracles" cited in the > Books of Allah, other scriptures, first hand accounts, poetry as well as the > words and actions of Messengers and Anbiyaa (previous Prophets). Did that > satisfy the people before Ibrahim, Musa, Nuh, Lut, Isa just to name a few? Miracles do not work with all people but they work with some. Allah Ta'ala does not order the occurrence of only things that would be received positively by the majority of people. He is so Merciful that He could make a miracle even if it would work for only one person. As you state in your reply, despite the rejection of miracles of a certain prophet by the majority of his people Allah Ta'ala send other prophets (peace be upon them) with further miracles. > Does the modern day "evidence" of a depleting environment, fractured ozone, > poisoned air and water and poluted food stop the over-indulgence of a > materialistic, consumer driven society rampaged by cancer and heart disease. All these are evidence on the abuse and misuse of man of his environment. They also indicate moral deterioration. But these are not miracles. Miracles refer to Allah Ta'ala, the ones you mention refer to the wrongdoing of man. Allah Ta'ala says: {dhahara al-fasadu filbarri walbahr bima kasabat aydi annas} (mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned) [30:41]. > What is the real good-for-all of "documenting" scientifically speaking > "miracles". Does it really make a true believer out of anybody? As I said earlier, it may and it may not, as any guiding deed may and may not work. In the life of the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala alayhi wa sallam) there are many events where people became Muslims only after witnessing miracles from him. Whether one would then become a true believer or not this has nothing to do with miracles or guidance, it is another matter. > what if the miracles turn out to be explainable "scientific" phenomenon? Are > they not miracles any longer? And what if the "miracles" can't be explained? By definition, miracles are inexplicable in terms of material sciences. Any event or phenomenon turns out to be explainable by these sciences is not a miracle. > Does that make them "true spiritual" miracles? And what is magic, sorcerey > or simply sophisticated psychic parlor games? And where does this all stop? Magic was available in Musa's (peace be upon him) days but he came with miracles. What is the problem? Magic can have an element of paranormality as miracles do, but miracles come from Prophets (peace be upon them), caramat come from Sufis, and magic come from magicians. This is where things start and end. > Do we have a tariqat miracle competion? Our miracles are better that your > miracles. I cannot understand what is that in my post that makes you put this question. Who has mentioned competition? The Prophets were not competing with each other by performing miracles but were guiding people. The Sufi Masters do the same. > What if someone never even saw a miracle, or had a miracle ever? > Are they still okay? And who becomes a better person, better Muslim, more > heartfelt and closer to Allah's Peace in the process? Of course, faith and piety do not require necessarily miracles. It is known that sayyidna Uways al-Qurani even did not meet the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala alayhi wa sallam) yet he was very close to the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala alayhi wa sallam). So, Allah Ta'ala has innumerable ways through which He put faith and piety in His slaves' hearts. > Better we should concentrate our attention and energy on Allah the One, and > in so doing serve Allah by serving Allah's creation. "Allah knows all sees > all. Surely He is the best Knower." Let's keep our eye on the ball. There > is more important fish to fry so to speak then cataloguing miracles. Let us > use our creative energy to help solve some real world problems, and in so > doing show Allah our dedication, love and surrender. Let us get on our knees > after a hard days work and beg Allah for forgiveness because we have > forgotten Him and thought for a moment _we_ were actually doing something. Cataloguing miracles, deeds, and sayings of Prophets (peace be upon them) and Sufi Masters is part of the good one may be able to do. We all know that worship can come in various forms not only prayer, fasting, for example. > Please forgive my tone. Istaghfiruallah. I bid you Peace and Salaam. Thank > you for your thoughtfull attention. Please don't take offense. :-) Offence could not be taken from your thoughful and very useful reply. > Wa Salaam, Wa 'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullah wa baracatuh. Best wishes to all. Louay ( this is my name :-) ) From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 18 04:00:43 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29005; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:11:22 -0400 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28980; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:11:16 -0400 Received: from cwis.unomaha.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzlzk12251; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cwis.unomaha.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA01718; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:00:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9510181400.AA01718@cwis.unomaha.edu> Subject: Re: Hazrat Bayazid Bistami [pt. 3] To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:00:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Bennett In-Reply-To: <9510162336.AA13923@serii.sybase.com> from "Mateen Siddiqui" at Oct 16, 95 04:36:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: 786 asalaam, Brother Mateen: I have enjoyed your postings...it seems that i have missed your parts 1 & 2 the Abu Yazid's posts. thank you so much wasalaam abdul ghani From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 18 07:37:04 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00638; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:29:03 -0400 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00612; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:29:01 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzlzt27363; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:28:58 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA23366 ; for ; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:37:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:37:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, L J Fatoohi wrote: > > Yes, signs were, are, and will be around us, but miracles occurred, > still occur, and will occur. Yes, I agree, they still occur. I can vouch having seen some people in my tariqa having turned a lump of coal into a diamond, in the short space of a just a few years! From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 18 06:21:59 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00546; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:56:30 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00509; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:56:28 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA10670 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:59 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951018102156_126898108@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: <<>> The thing I like about science is it's honesty. These days a scientist realizes that science only gives reasonable explainations, and that reason is not reality but a mental construct. I cannot believe that any sufi would try to change another's mind by argument except over the most minor of details - and even then some sufis would not argue. I cannot believe that even God would try to change someones mind - it is up to that person. That is a miracle. Isn't there some state in sufism which might be translated as the state of perceiving miracles? So, if miracles have any importance or relavance to spirituality, in my mind, they have it from the point of view of perceiving, not defining, or arguement, or being impressive or anything like that. Isn't this typical of most tariqas? I heard one sufi say, "The claim of Maya is a false claim, unless one can proove it." and the same goes for miracles - of course, you can only proove it to yourself or if sicence wants to say something is beyond explaination then I accept that the sceintist is in a state of perceiving miracles and if I can't see what he sees then maybe I just stand near him or her to catch their joy at being able to percieve the non rational reality ..... it is not science which proves miracles, it is scientists .... and the reason they so rarely accept miracles is because they are so honest .... I hope to be like them Asha From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 18 02:42:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01895; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:57:35 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01679; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:57:29 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10130; Wed, 18 Oct 95 09:40:50 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 18 Oct 95 9:40:50 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id JAA15190; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:40:48 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03853; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:42:35 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:42:35 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510181642.AA03853@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I believe that it is a good idea to evaluate the benifit to be derived from documenting miracles. No doubt you have already done this in depth but never the less, I feel compelled to share my thoughts on the subject. I think that we might agree that the value of this investigation can only be measured against the yardstick of bringing people to, or increasing faith balanced against the possible effect of leading people deeper into darkness. I know of no law that says a miracle will have a positive effect on all who encounter it. My own experience is that reading accounts of miracles has not been of value to me in increasing my faith. In fact, depending on the nature of the miracle being cited, I may tend to become 'reserved' about the credibility of the source. Many accounts of miracles I take to be 'teaching stories' and do not consider them literally. Sometimes I think that if I actually saw a miracle (something that cannot happens does happen; like a rock turn into a rabbit, I am not talking about 'every day' miracles here) that this would deepen my faith. But upon further reflection I can see that more than likely, I would just look for some yet undiscovered scientific principle. I might believe that the Enterprise had beamed up the rock and beamed a rabbit down in it's place. Now from this you can see that there is little in this dunya that has persuasive power over me. But 'signs' are not necessairly miracles. The fact that I 'can enjoy' the smell of a rose is a sign to me. I ask 'What is this "enjoyment"?' an that question points the way for me. Unlike a miracle, a sign must always have a positive effect. I cannot speak for others as to how miracles or accounts of miracles may effect them but I suspect that very few will derive real benefit. I read somewhere that 'the age of miracles is finished'. The author did not mean that no more miracles were happening, only that the power of miracles to lead people to faith is a notion who's time as passed. Maybe this is true, maybe not. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 17 23:35:05 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27164; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:25:06 -0400 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27109; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:25:04 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzlzj11257; Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lafn.org id AA21418 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Wed, 18 Oct 1995 06:35:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 06:35:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199510181335.AA21418@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: a little physics to go! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: There have been some discussions in other forums discussion groups that I thought might be shared in some of the thoughts brought forth there. >> Is this the so-called "hundred monkeys effect" that is being referred to here? (Monkeys on the beach learning how to wash sweet potatos?) >> >I'm not familiar with the "hundred monkeys effect." I'm referring to phenomena described by Rupert Sheldrake in his books in which some kind of learning or adaptability is acquired by an organic or inorganic system after an initial "ground breaking" has been done by a primal system. These phenomena suggest some pervading presence of mind or intelligence in the cosmos that transcends the "pathways" of space and time, and therefore give us pause concerning causal descriptions. > This phenomena is also contained within David Bohms hidden variable hypothesis re quantum mechanics. This approach presupposes a substrate of reality below the threshold of currently measureable subatomic physics wherein in addition to the current probabalistic approach or supplanting the probabalistic we have a whole level of hidden variables which transcend space time casusal relationships. --- That is there are hidden connections between parts of creation. Or we could develop Wheeler's particle physics model wherein within ultimate creation we find there are really only ome of each variety of subatomic particle i.e. one electron one proton one neutrino etc. and that this one partic;e is moving at a very increase speed or is projecting itself into all the physically manifested forms that we observe or measure but that ultimatelely we all share the common unique subatoms which is why we are connected at the substrate or matrix or vacuum state level to a much higher degree than is usually experienced innormal consciousness or differentiated reality. Once in a while however, in experiencing cosmic consciousness, we come upon the feeling of the unique connectivity that we subconsciously "know" really ties together all of reality, which is why sometimes I really can see myself from the vantage point of another as they see me or feel both "myself"and other "selves" concurrently. Another approach is that we are all projections from some hidden infomational hologram of the cosmso activated only by the laser light of divine intelligence as it projects onto the CD pf reality activated into manifestation but ultimately nothing more than the interplay of light and shadow well removed from its source and of a totally different nature that we nominally perceive or experience. Starting to get kind of obtuse here Love to all Ivan Raqib in Santa Monica -- q k -- q k From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 01:59:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10855; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:57:34 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10821; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:57:31 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17586; Thu, 19 Oct 95 08:57:30 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 19 Oct 95 8:57:29 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id IAA27607; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:57:28 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04177; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:59:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:59:14 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510191559.AA04177@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: change another's mind X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Wed Oct 18 18:28:05 1995 > Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:59 -0400 > I cannot believe that any sufi would try to change another's mind by > argument except over the most minor of details - and even then some sufis > would not argue. I cannot believe that even God would try to change someones > mind - it is up to that person. That is a miracle. Jesus often said 'repent'. The Greek word for repent is metanoia ( if memory serves ) which literally translated means 'change of mind' or 'think in a new way'. It seems to me that all of the prophets were deeply involved in argument in order to change the minds of others. For clarification it may be good to review the meaning of the word 'argument'. For some this word has come to mean : emotionally laden squabbling. This is the wrong meaning. 'Argument' simply means: to give reason for or against something. I believe that squabbling is worthless, but argument can be a very useful tool when applied correctly. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 04:01:57 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04869; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:03:02 -0400 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04852; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:03:00 -0400 Received: by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id LAA01543; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:01:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: change another's mind To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9510191559.AA04177@kirin.Tymnet.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Michael J. Moore wrote: > > From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Wed Oct 18 18:28:05 1995 > > Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:59 -0400 > > > I cannot believe that any sufi would try to change another's mind by > > argument except over the most minor of details - and even then some sufis > > would not argue. I cannot believe that even God would try to change someones > > mind - it is up to that person. That is a miracle. > > Jesus often said 'repent'. The Greek word for repent is metanoia ( if memory serves ) > which literally translated means 'change of mind' or 'think in a new way'. > > It seems to me that all of the prophets were deeply involved in argument in order to > change the minds of others. > > For clarification it may be good to review the meaning of the word 'argument'. > For some this word has come to mean : emotionally laden squabbling. This is the > wrong meaning. 'Argument' simply means: to give reason for or against something. > > I believe that squabbling is worthless, but argument can be a very useful tool > when applied correctly. > -Michael- > Very interesting, It seems that argument which is squabling, comes from a place of ego, I'm right, you're not. In it is I and YOU, seperation. right and wrong, seperation. this seems to come from a place of closed heart. If argument is made in a state of communion with a common puprose in a state of openness then understanding can come. in clear light, Hal From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 17:11:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17268; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:11:09 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17164; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:11:03 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA13425 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:11:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:11:01 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951019211046_128205259@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: change another's mind Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: When Jesus said repent (as in change your mind) do you suppose that he ment "change your own mind', or "let me try to change it for you"? What I mean by argument is the latter, not really just squabbleing, and I suppose that it is nice to offer some alternatives sometimes, but that is not the same as hoping to overwhelm somebody "blow them away", so to speak and so to change their mind by the shock of your powerful argument or by the defeat of their own point of view. I suppose that there have been some warners of danger that have said to some, "REPENT !" esp. they said it to kings and people like that who have some responsibility for the lives of others. But, before one can really change their mind, there must be an awakening, which happens for each person on their own schedule. Now, I can't say what prophets ought to do or not do but maybe it might happen that I can offer some oppertunity for awakening, but the advice that is usually given in my Tradition is to not go around trying to wake people up - but to be more respectful of their own timing and process. Just today I heard that some scientists have discovered a flowering gene in plants and how it can be triggered to make flowers bloom. So now you can make flowers bloom at any time of year or even years before it would be natural. So, I can see some very usefull benefits from this kind of triggering but I can see many, many effects for wich we may be very sorry in the future. There is something meaningful in the natural cycle of awakening and I have a feeling that really, if a miracle is the cause of my awakening, maybe what I think of as a miracle is really quite natural. I guess that some really get excited about the possibility of doing things outside of the natural method but in our tariqua it isn't suggested as somethind most desirable. Asha From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 14:48:43 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10246; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 01:29:15 -0400 Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10193; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 01:29:11 -0400 Received: from [204.157.98.168] (sea-ts2-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.168]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id WAA28084 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:48:43 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: change another's mind Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >> From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Wed Oct 18 18:28:05 1995 >> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:21:59 -0400 > >> I cannot believe that any sufi would try to change another's mind by >> argument except over the most minor of details - and even then some sufis >> would not argue. I cannot believe that even God would try to change someones >> mind - it is up to that person. That is a miracle. > >Jesus often said 'repent'. The Greek word for repent is metanoia ( if >memory serves ) >which literally translated means 'change of mind' or 'think in a new way'. > >It seems to me that all of the prophets were deeply involved in argument >in order to >change the minds of others. > >For clarification it may be good to review the meaning of the word 'argument'. >For some this word has come to mean : emotionally laden squabbling. This is the >wrong meaning. 'Argument' simply means: to give reason for or against >something. > >I believe that squabbling is worthless, but argument can be a very useful tool >when applied correctly. >-Michael- Assalam Alaikum It might be interesting to substitute "transmission" for "argument" when speaking about changing the mind, i.e., opening the soul to one's Lord. Peace and Blessings, Habib N. From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 14:54:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12523; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 01:35:28 -0400 Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12471; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 01:35:23 -0400 Received: from [204.157.98.168] (sea-ts2-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.168]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id WAA28408 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:54:55 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, L J Fatoohi wrote: > >> >> Yes, signs were, are, and will be around us, but miracles occurred, >> still occur, and will occur. > > >Yes, I agree, they still occur. I can vouch having seen some people in my >tariqa having turned a lump of coal into a diamond, in the short space of >a just a few years! Assalam Alaikum Would that we all understood that miracle. Peace, Habib N. From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 19 16:09:17 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10699; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 02:49:49 -0400 Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10649; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 02:49:45 -0400 Received: from [204.157.98.168] (sea-ts2-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.168]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id XAA00843 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:54:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:09:17 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: salvation in Islam Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >as-salam alaykum, > >Daniel Muzaffer Donnell writes: > >>There is no conception in Islam that anyone can be saved by the >>prayers or intervention of another, as there is in other religions. > >I don't know that any religion holds that salvation comes from other >than God. However, the intervention of others or rather >"intercession" is a fundamental belief in Islam, as well as to believe >that such intercession can benefit you. It is the principle behind >funeral prayer, for one. > >This doesn't directly bear on tariqas or tasawwuf, so please let me >know if anyone is interested in discussing it. > >Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions > >Fouad Haddad >Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation Assalam Alaikum I am interested in hearing the central tenets of "intercession" if you would be so kind. Peace and Blessings, Habib Najar From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 10:02:02 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04330; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 04:02:15 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04286; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 04:02:08 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:02:07 +0100 Received: from deneb by venus id ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:02:06 +0100 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:02:02 +0100 (BST) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <951018102156_126898108@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hello everybody, > I cannot believe that any sufi would try to change another's mind by > argument except over the most minor of details - and even then some sufis > would not argue. I cannot believe that even God would try to change someones > mind - it is up to that person. That is a miracle. I cannot agree on this argument. All prophets (peace be upon them) went out calling people to the Way, preaching and teaching them by all the means they had. They did everything to change people to another state. The messege of Sufism is the messege of the prophets (peace be upon them), this is why the Sufi Masters call people and guide them. Allah Ta'ala said in the Holy Qur'an (Ud'u ila sabili rabbika bilhikmati walmaw'idhati al-hasana wajadilhum billatiheya ahsan) {Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation,and have disputations with them in the best manner} [16:125]. Of course,calling people to the Way doesn't mean forcing them to accept it. > Isn't there some state in sufism which might be translated as the state of > perceiving miracles? So, if miracles have any importance or relavance to > spirituality, in my mind, they have it from the point of view of perceiving, > not defining, or arguement, or being impressive or anything like that. Isn't > this typical of most tariqas? I am not sure I can see your point. Throughout history miracles were shown to various people, and I know of no class of people that was excluded. I have not heard of the state you are referring to. What about the thousands who witnessed miracles of Sayyidina 'Isa? Were they shown miracles because they had a special state to percieve them? I don't think so. > it is > not science which proves miracles, it is scientists .... and the reason they > so rarely accept miracles is because they are so honest Science is a profession just like any other profession. To become a scientist one does not have to be honest first. Additionally, sceintific training doesn't create honesty in the person. All the imperfections that a human being can have, he may have them all and in their worst forms while being a great scientist. Sociology of science and history of science both teach us a lot in this regard. Best regards. Louay From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 10:20:22 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11779; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 04:20:59 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11722; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 04:20:53 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:20:27 +0100 Received: from deneb by venus id ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:20:26 +0100 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:20:22 +0100 (BST) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <9510181642.AA03853@kirin.Tymnet.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > I know of no law that says a miracle will have a positive effect on all > who encounter it. This is absolutely true. But this does not apply to miracles only. > My own experience is that reading accounts of miracles has not been of > value to me in increasing my faith. In fact, depending on the nature of > the miracle being cited, I may tend to become 'reserved' about the > credibility of the source. Many accounts of miracles I take to be > 'teaching stories' and do not consider them literally. There is no reason to believe that everything we read is true. But I would like to add that suspicions should not be raised just because a certain event is "too miraculous to be true". This paranormality, strangeness, or whatever you call it is what miracles are all about after all. Obviously, reading about miracles is not like witnessing miracles. At least, one would not have to think whether a certain miracle he has read about was a real miracle or just a teaching story. > Sometimes I think that if I actually saw a miracle (something that cannot > happens does happen; like a rock turn into a rabbit, I am not talking > about 'every day' miracles here) that this would deepen my faith. But upon > further reflection I can see that more than likely, I would just look for > some yet undiscovered scientific principle. I might believe that the > Enterprise had beamed up the rock and beamed a rabbit down in it's place. > Now from this you can see that there is little in this dunya that has > persuasive power over me. This analysis may be applicable for the example you mention. However, it does not work with all miracles. No scientific method or device could enable a human being insert a skewer through vital organs of his body without pain, bleeding, and infection, and with instant healing once the skewer is removed. No scientific principle could explain this, in fact, things are exactly the opposite; _well-established_ scientific facts and principles get suspended during such a feat. No conspiracy theory could account for such feats. > But 'signs' are not necessairly miracles. The fact that I 'can enjoy' the > smell of a rose is a sign to me. I ask 'What is this "enjoyment"?' an that > question points the way for me. Unlike a miracle, a sign must always > have a positive effect. If I am not wrong in understanding your use of the word "sign" then I would say that positive effect of a sign is not a must. Think of the numerous signs [ayat] that Allah Ta'ala mentions in the Holy Qur'an, such as the natural phenomena. These are divine signs for some people but they can be wrongly dealt with by others. A huge edifice of atheistic material science has been built by such phenomena. The very signs that some people see referring to the Creator are for others evidence on a universe that has created itself. Take a more striking example: Allah Ta'ala says about the Holy Qur'an (Inna hatha al-Qur'an yahdi lillati hiya aqwam) {Surely this Qur'an guides to that which is most upright} [17:9], and He also says (Kadhalika naslikuhu fiqulub al-mujrimin. La y'minum bihi) {Thus do We make it into the hearts of the guilty. They do not believe in it} [15:12-13]. So, no sign has positive effects on all people. Of course, the problem is with people. > I cannot speak for others as to how miracles or accounts of miracles may > effect them but I suspect that very few will derive real benefit. I read > somewhere that 'the age of miracles is finished'. The author did not > mean that no more miracles were happening, only that the power of > miracles to lead people to faith is a notion who's time as passed. > Maybe this is true, maybe not. In this world that is being drawn more and more into pure materialism, Sufi miraculous feats remind people that although this world seems to represent the ultimate reality, this is not true. Basic laws of this world can be suspended and other totally different laws take over. Isn't it the very message that Sufism wants to convey to people that this exoteric world hides the real spiritual world? Conveying this message is very beneficial. Salam. Louay From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 05:03:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05506; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:04:47 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05193; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:04:22 -0400 Received: from muphnx8 (muphnx8.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.18]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA19869 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:03:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199510201503.KAA19869@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx8 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA04373; Fri, 20 Oct 95 10:03:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 10:03:48 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Bediuzzaman Said Nursi and the Risale-Nur Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamo alaikum wa rahmat Allah The following is some information that I found on an amazing Turkish thinker. His work (the Risale Nur) cover all sorts of topics, many of which I think that some of our brothers/sister will appreciate on Tariqas. Inshallah, in the future, I'll post some of his shorter treatises, but for now, here's a bit about this great man's life. NOTE: The only thing that I found interesting in my little study of Bediuzzaman's life that was not mentioned in the following article was that at a very young age, he studied all the tariqas, Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Mevlevi, etc. Ottoman Turkey, being the home of Islam (during his life), was thus the home of many tariqas. He literally spent his whole life in constant activity, trying to bring himself closer to God, studying all realms of knowldege; I am sure that what he has to say sill interest some people. Beginning of article: WHO IS BEDIUZZAMAN SAID NURSI? Bediuzzaman Said Nursi was born in eastren Turkey in 1873 and died in 1960 at the age of 87 after a life of exemplary struggle and self-sacrifice in the cause of Islam. he was a scholar of the highest standing having studied not only all the traditional religious sciences but also modern science and had earned the name Bediuzzaman, Wonder of the Age, in his youth as a result of his outstanding ability and learning. Bediuzzman`s life-time spanned the final decades of the Caliphate and Ottoman Empire, its collapse and dismemberment after the first World War, and, after its formation in 1923, the first thirty-seven years of the Republic, of which the years up to 1950 are famous for the Goverment`s repressive anti-islamic and anti-religious policies. Until the years following the first World War, Bediuzzman`s struggles in the cause of Islam had been active and in the public domain. he had not only taught many students and had engaged in debate and discussion with leading scholars from all over the Islamic world, but he had also commanded and led in person a volunteer regiment against the invading Russians in Eastern Turkey in 1914 for nearly two years until taken prisoner. Furthermore, up to that time he had sought to further the interests of Islam by actively engaging in public life. However, the years that saw the transition from Empire to Republic also saw the transition from the 'Old Said' to the 'New Said'. The 'New Said' was characterised by his withdrawal from public life and concentration on study, prayer and thought for what was required now was a struggle of a different sort. After a period of some two years, in 1925, Bediuzzaman was sent into exile in Westren Anatolia and for the next twenty-five years, and to a lesser extent for the last ten years of his life, he suffered nothing but exile, imprisonment, harassment and persecution by the authorities. But these years of exile and isolation saw the writing of the Risale-i Nur, the Treatise of Light, and its disseminition throughout Turkey. To quote Bediuzzaman himself, "Now I see clearly that most of my life has been directed in such a way, outside my own free-wil, ability, comprehension and foresight, that it might produce these treatises to serve the cause of the Qur`an. It is as if all my life as a scholar has been spent in preliminaries to these writings, which demonstrate the miraculousness of Qur`an." Bediuzzaman understood an essential cause of the decline of the Islamic world to be the weakening of the very foundations of belief. This weakining, together with the unprecedented attacks on those foundations in the 19th and 20th centruies carried out by materialists, atheists and others in the name of science and progress, led him to realize that the urgent and over-riding need was to strengthen, and even to save , belief. What was needed was to expend all efforts to reconstruct the edifice of Islam from its foundations, belief, and to answer at that level those attacks with a "manevi jihad" or "jihad of the word." Thus, in his exile, Bediuzzman wrote a body of work, the Risale-i Nur, that would explain and expound the basic tenets of belief, the truths of the Qur`an, to modern man. His method was to analyse both belief and unbelief and to demonstrate through clearly reasoned arguments that not only is it possible, by following the method of the Qur`an, to prove rationally all the truths of belief, such as God`s existence and unity, prophethood, and bodily resurrection, but also that these truths are the only rational explanation of existence, man and the universe. Bediuzzaman thus demonstrated in the form of easily understand stories, comparisions, explanations, and reasoned proofs that, rather than the truths of religion being incompatible with the findings of modern science, the materialist interpretation of those findings is irrational and absurd. Indeed, Bediuzzaman proved in the Risale-i Nur that science`s breathtaking discoveries of the universe`s functioning corrobrote and reinforce the truths of religion. The importance of the Risale-i Nur cannot be over-estimated, for through it Bediuzzaman Said Nursi played a major role in preserving and revitalizing the islamic faith in Turkey, in the very darkest days of her history. And indeed its role has continued to increase in importance to the present day. But further to this, the Risale-i Nur is uniquely fifted to address not only all muslims but indeed all mankind for several reasons. Firstly it is written in accordance with modern man`s mentality, a mentality that, whather Muslim or not, has been deeply imbued by materialist philosophy: it specifically answers all the questions, doubts and confusions that this causes. It answers too all the "why`s" that mark the questioning mind of modern man. Also, it explains the most profound matters of belief which formerly only advanced scholars studied in detail, in such a way that everyone, even those to whom the subject is new, may understand and gain something without it causing any difficulties or harm. A further reason is that in explaining the true nature and purpose of man and the universe, the Risale-i Nur shows that true happiness is only to be found in belief and knowledge of God, both in this world and the hereafter. And it also points out the grievous pain and unhappiness that unbelief causes man`s spirit and conscience, which generally the misguided attempt to block out through heedlessness and escapism, so that anyone with any sense may take refuge in belief. 7 THE BOOKS OF RISALE-I NUR: Contemporary Comment on the Holy Qur`an 7 NOTE: the Risale-i Nur Collection is a Qur`anic commentary exceeding five thousand pages which was written in Turkish by the most significant islamic scholar of this century, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, in order to prove and explain the truth of belief to contemporary Muslims and Modern Man, and now available in English, German, Arabic, French, and more languages. Here are some of the books from the Risale-i Nur Collection: 7 THE SUPREME SIGN Observations of a traveller questioning creation concerning his Maker: indeed every voyager who comes to the hospice and the realm of this world, opens his eyes and wonders who is the master of this fine hospice, which resembles a most generous banquet, a most ingenious exhibition, a most impressive camp and training ground, amost amazing and wondrous place of recreation, a most profound and wise place of instruction. 7 RESURRECTION AND THE HEREAFTER This book, with its exquisite logic, not only the existence of life after death, but it also makes clear the relevence of our present lives to our states in the hereafter. 7 MAN AND THE UNIVERSE The key to the universe is in the hand of man is attached to his self. For while being appearently open, the doors of creation are, in fact, closed. God Almighty has given to mankind, by way of a trust, a key, called the 'I', that is such that it opens all the doors of the universe. he has given them an enigmatic 'I' with which they may discover the hidden treasures of the creator of all beings. 7 NATURE: CAUSE AND EFFECT This book proves and explains that, "nature can at the most be an art, it cannot be the artist. it is an order, and cannot be the orderer. It is a code of the cration, cannot be the establisher of the code. and creation is but a screen for the dignity of God, it cannot be the creator." 7 BELIEF AND MAN This book speaks of the fundemental matters that bring believers together and unite them; it proves with rational evidence the foundations of belief on which all are agreed. The truths in this book will be found useful by the followers of other revealed religions as well as by Muslims. 7 SINCERITY AND BROTHERHOOD "Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful and even the misguided and hypocrites co-operate wirhout rivalry, the people of religion, the learned and those who follow the path oppose each other in rivalry, although they are the people of truth and concord?" 7 THE MIRACLES OF MUHAMMAD The testimony of history is explained. Through more than three hunred instances, this book illustrates the miraculousness of the messengership of Muhammad, upon whom be peace and blessings. At the same time, it is itself a marvel derived from that miraculousness in afew of its aspects. 7 FRUITS FROM THE TREE OF LIGHT In this work, the bases of faith, and principally belief in God and the Hereafter, are explained and proved. The effects of belief in God on individual and social life and matters such as why we must worship are elucidated and some guiding principles for our lives are demonstrated. End of article. There are many more books of the Risale-Nur, and Inshallah, I'll post some of them to discuss his writings. Assalamo alaikum wa rahmat Allah, Your brother, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 07:28:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27398; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:30:22 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26630; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:29:19 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10077 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:28:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:28:52 -0400 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Message-Id: <951020112850_75903465@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: To quote a murshid in the line of Inayat Khan: "Miracles are happening constantly, all around us. The real miracle is when someone is actually awake enough to notice them." --Shamcher From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 03:52:07 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12687; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:01:11 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12452; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:01:05 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11904; Fri, 20 Oct 95 12:01:01 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 20 Oct 95 12:01:00 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id KAA11375; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:50:20 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04650; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:52:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:52:07 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510201752.AA04650@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > > Sometimes I think that if I actually saw a miracle (something that cannot > > happens does happen; like a rock turn into a rabbit, I am not talking > > about 'every day' miracles here) that this would deepen my faith. But upon > > further reflection I can see that more than likely, I would just look for > > some yet undiscovered scientific principle. I might believe that the > > Enterprise had beamed up the rock and beamed a rabbit down in it's place. > > Now from this you can see that there is little in this dunya that has > > persuasive power over me. > > This analysis may be applicable for the example you mention. However, it > does not work with all miracles. No scientific method or device could > enable a human being insert a skewer through vital organs of his body > without pain, bleeding, and infection, and with instant healing once the > skewer is removed. No scientific principle could explain this, in fact, > things are exactly the opposite; _well-established_ scientific facts and > principles get suspended during such a feat. No conspiracy theory could > account for such feats. I don't see why not. If you allow my example of the rabbit and the rock, then you must also allow that the human being could have been replaced by a holograph that skewered his organ. Or maybe a creature from another dimension placed memory implants into your brain and the real event never occured at all. We must investigate! As outlandish as these two explanations may seem, I am sure that other people could come up with at least 100 more feasable scientific explanations. Anyway, I do not believe that a person can skewer a vital organ without bleeding, and I won't believe it until I see it for myself. > > > But 'signs' are not necessairly miracles. The fact that I 'can enjoy' the > > smell of a rose is a sign to me. I ask 'What is this "enjoyment"?' an that > > question points the way for me. Unlike a miracle, a sign must always > > have a positive effect. > > If I am not wrong in understanding your use of the word "sign" then I would > say that positive effect of a sign is not a must. Think of the numerous signs > [ayat] that Allah Ta'ala mentions in the Holy Qur'an, such as the natural > phenomena. These are divine signs for some people but they can be wrongly > dealt with by others. A huge edifice of atheistic material science has been > built by such phenomena. The very signs that some people see referring to the > Creator are for others evidence on a universe that has created itself. > Take a more striking example: Allah Ta'ala says about the Holy Qur'an > (Inna hatha al-Qur'an yahdi lillati hiya aqwam) {Surely this Qur'an > guides to that which is most upright} [17:9], and He also says (Kadhalika > naslikuhu fiqulub al-mujrimin. La y'minum bihi) {Thus do We make it into > the hearts of the guilty. They do not believe in it} [15:12-13]. So, no > sign has positive effects on all people. Of course, the problem is with > people. You are correct and I will repent on this point. I had a different meaning for 'sign' in mind. For me, the natural phenomena itself is not a sign, rather it is the 'impression' of the event that I had in mind. More of a latif sort of thing. What does this mean: {Thus do We make it into the hearts of the guilty. They do not believe in it} [15:12-13] Is it saying that the Qur'an does or does not make it into the hearts of the guilty? > > I cannot speak for others as to how miracles or accounts of miracles may > > effect them but I suspect that very few will derive real benefit. I read > > somewhere that 'the age of miracles is finished'. The author did not > > mean that no more miracles were happening, only that the power of > > miracles to lead people to faith is a notion who's time as passed. > > Maybe this is true, maybe not. > > In this world that is being drawn more and more into pure materialism, Sufi I don't think that I would agree with this. Is this world being drawn more and more into pure materialism? I would guess that about 1/10 of 1% of the world's popoulation do not believe some sort of non material spirituality. Even here in the US of A only about 10% are non believers ( if I recall my stats correctly ) I think that what is missing for many is an understanding of the role that the spiritual world plays in ones life. What effect does it have? Why is it important? > miraculous feats remind people that although this world seems to > represent the ultimate reality, this is not true. Basic laws of this > world can be suspended and other totally different laws take over. Isn't it Do different laws take over or does Allah, who is beyond all laws, take over? > the very message that Sufism wants to convey to people that this > exoteric world hides the real spiritual world? Conveying this message is > very beneficial. I suppose you could be right. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 05:05:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07708; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:23:42 -0400 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07633; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:23:37 -0400 Received: by netcom11.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id MAA00692; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:05:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:05:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: change another's mind To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace and blessings, In recieving argument I find great value. I look for that which I do not know. When argument is presented there is information in it which takes me from my point of view into the view of the guest/beloved/other/ that which i am seperated from. It takes me to the unknown outside of my own thoughts. In surrendering to it expansion occurrs. If i encounter resistance within myself, it is a revelation of another naf, and therefor a cue to surrender deeper, reduce my self and become that which I am not (in that moment). This is a great service which is provided me, which i return. for this I am greatful, I become dust.... Hal From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 15:13:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26525; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:40 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26505; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:38 -0400 Received: from asb12 (sls2.asb.com [165.254.128.12]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01026 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199510210113.UAA01026@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Intercession X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > Assalam Alaikum > > I am interested in hearing the central tenets of "intercession" if >you would be so kind. > > Peace and Blessings, > Habib Najar > Wa alaykum as-salam, Peace and Blessings to everyone on this Net. I have posted the evidence for intercession in Islam, in two posts. A great saint (al-Busayri) once said: <>, in reference to the intercession of our beloved Prophet Muhammad, Blessings and Peace be upon him. I do hope and I pray that the long or possibly tedious nature (to some) of the two posts does not annoy anyone! :> Fouad From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 15:14:10 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26718; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:58 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26659; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:13:53 -0400 Received: from asb12 (sls2.asb.com [165.254.128.12]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01030 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199510210114.UAA01030@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: [1] Intercession X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim May God send Blessings and Peace upon the Prophet, his Family, and His Companions. "We did not send you save as a Mercy to the Worlds" (21:107) "My Mercy encompasses all things" (7:156) THE PROOFS OF INTERCESSION IN THE QUR'AN AND HADITH. [1st of 2 posts] This article consists in the following parts: 1. Linguistic definitions of the Arabic word for intercession/mediation and intercessor/mediator. 2. Statement of the doctrine of intercession of Islam and of the obligation of belief therein. 3. Proofs of intercession/mediation in the Qur'an. (Seven subheadings) 4. Proofs of intercession/mediation in the Hadith. (Three subheadings in two parts each) 5. Overview of the events of the Last Day at the stage of intercession. 1. Linguistic definitions. Shafa`a is the Arabic noun for intercession or mediation or asking forgiveness from God for someone else. The word is used also in laying a petition before a king (see "Lisan al-`Arab" under shafa`a), interceding for a debtor (Bukhari, Istiqrad Ch. 18), and in judicial procedure: - 4:85: "Whoso makes a righteous intercession shall partake of the good that ensues therefrom, and whoso makes an evil intercession will bear the consequence thereof"; - Bukhari, Anbiya ch. 54: "He who by his intercession invalidates one of Allah's hudud (laws concerning transgressions) is challenging (tahadda) Allah." He who makes intercession is called shaafi` and shafee`. 2. Statement of the Doctrine of Intercession in Islam and the Obligations of Belief Therein. "It is obligatory to believe in the intercession of first the prophets, then religious scholars, then martyrs, then other believers, the intercession of each one commensurate with his rank and position with Allah Most High. [based on 3:18 and 4:69] "Any believer remaining in hell without intercessor shall be taken out of it by the favor of Allah, no one who believes remaining in it forever, and anyone with an atom's weight of faith in his heart will eventually depart from it." Imam Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, "Ihya `Ulum ad-Din," (beginning) trans. Nuh Keller in "Reliance of the Traveller" p. 824. 3. Proofs of intercession/mediation in the Qur'an. In the Holy Qur'an intercession is a) negated in relation to the unbelievers, b) established categorically as belonging to God, c) further defined as generally permitted for others than God by His permission, d) further specified as permitted for the angels on behalf of whomever God wills, e) explicitly attributed to the Prophet (s) in his lifetime, f) alluded to in reference to the Prophet (s) in the afterlife, and g) alluded to in reference to the generality of the prophets and the believers in the afterlife. 3.a) The Day of Judgment is described as a day on which no intercession will be accepted from the Children of Israel (2:48) or the unbelievers generally speaking (2:254), or the idolaters (10:18, 74:48): - 2:48: "And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will avail another, nor intercession be accepted from it"; - 2:254: "O believers, spend of that wherewith We have provided you before a day come when there will be no trafficking, nor friendship, nor intercession. The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." - 10:19: "They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah." - 74:48: "The mediation of no mediators will avail them then." 3.b) In absolute terms intercession belongs to God alone: - 39:43-44: "Or choose they intercessors other than Allah? Say: What! Even though they have power over nothing and have no intelligence? Say: the intercession belongs to God." 3.c) A further definition that "Intercession belongs to God" is that intercession is actually permitted to others than God but only by His permission: - 2:255: "Who should intercede with him, except by his permission?" - 10:4: "There is no intercessor save after His permission." - 19:87: "They will have no power of intercession, save him who has made a covenant with his Lord." - 43:86: "And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, except him who beareth witness unto the truth knowingly." 3.d) Angels are permitted to intercede for whomever God wills, specifically among the believers: - 21:26-28: "And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son... Nay, but honored slaves [angels]... and they cannot intercede except for him whom He accepteth, and they quake for awe of Him." - 40:7: "Those who bear the Throne, and all who are round about it... ask forgiveness for those who believe." - 42:5: "The angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the earth." 3.e) The intercession of the Prophet (s) in his lifetime is explicitly and frequently established: - 3:159: "Pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs." - 4:64: "And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah forgiving, merciful." - 4:106-107: "And ask forgiveness of Allah (for others). Allah is ever forgiving, merciful. And plead not on behalf of those who deceive themselves." - 8:33: "But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them." - 9:80, 84: "Ask forgiveness for them (the hypocrites) or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them... And never pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave." - 9:103: "Pray for them. Lo! thy prayer is an assuagement for them." - 9:113: "It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire." - 24:62: "If they ask thy leave for some affair of theirs, give leave to whom thou wilt of them, and ask for them forgiveness of Allah." - 47:19: "Know that there is no god save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women." - 60:12: "Accept their [believing women's] allegience and ask Allah to forgive them." - 63:5-6: "And when it is said unto them: Come! the messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they [the hypocrites] avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful. Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them, Allah will not forgive them." 3.f) The intercession/mediation of the Prophet (s) on the Day of Judgment has been established by the consensus of scholars (ijma`) and is an article of belief in Islam as stated in section (2), the rejection of which means rejection of Islam. The Mu`tazili heresy rejected it, as they held that the man who enters hell will remain there forever. The consensus of scholars is based on the principle of permission (see the verses in section (c) above), on the following allusive verses, and on the more explicit ahadith quoted later: - 17:79: "It may be that thy Lord will raise thee to a Praised Station." - 93:5: "And verily thy Lord will give unto thee so that thou wilt be content." 3.g) The intercession of the generality of the prophets as well as the believers has similarly been established by the verses of section c) above, i.e. based on permission, and also because prophets have made a covenant with their Lord (33:7, 3:81) and do bear witness unto the truth knowingly. The latter is true also of the elite of the believers (3:18: "Allah, the angels, and the men of learning"). There are also the following verses concerning the prophets' intercession in their lifetime: - 12:97-98: "And they said: O our father! Ask forgiveness of our sins for us for lo! we were sinful. And he [Jacob] said: I shall ask forgiveness for you of my Lord. Lo! He is the forgiving, the merciful." - 19:47: "He [Abraham] said: Peace unto thee. I shall ask forgiveness of my Lord for thee." - 61:4: "Abraham promised his father: I will ask forgiveness for thee, though I owe nothing for thee from Allah." There are also the following verses concerning the believers' intercession in their lifetime: - 9:113: "It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire." - "And those who came after them say: Our Lord! forgive us and forgive our believing brothers who lived before us." -end of Part 1 of 2 posts- Blessings and Peace upon the Prophet. From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 20 15:14:23 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26828; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:09 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26814; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:06 -0400 Received: from asb12 (sls2.asb.com [165.254.128.12]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01035 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:14:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199510210114.UAA01035@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: [2] Intercession X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: --2nd of 2 posts on Intercession-- 4. Proofs of intercession/mediation in the Hadith. In the hadith the power of intercession is emphasized as given a) to the Prophet (s) exclusively of other prophets; b) to special members of the Prophet's Community, such as saints and scholars; c) to the common believers of the Prophet's Community. 4.a) Intercession of the Prophet (s): 4.a.1) In his lifetime for those who passed away - All the authentic traditions concerning the Prophet's (s) prayer and takbir (saying "Allahu Akbar!") over the graves of the believers (janaza). - Muslim [jana'iz]: Abu Hurayra narrates that a dark-complexioned woman or young man used to sweep the mosque. When that person died, no-one told the Prophet (s) until he enquired about it and then went to pray over the grave. He remarked: "Verily, these graves are full of darkness for their dwellers. Verily, Allah Mighty and Glorious illumines them for their occupants by reason of my prayer for them." - Muslim [jana'iz]: `Awf ibn Malik said that after he heard the words of the Prophet's (s) prayer over a dead person, he earnestly desired that he had been that dead person. - Muslim [jana'iz]: Muhammad ibn Qays narrates from `A'isha that the Prophet (s) on every night that he was with her used to quietly=7F get dressed and leave at the end of the night, and she once followed him surreptitiously until he reached Baqi` [the graveyard of the believers] where he prayed for the dead. Later he told her that Gabriel had come to him and said: "Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi` and beg forgiveness for them." 4.a.2) In the afterlife - Muslim [Ihya 4:2989]: `Abdullah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As narrated that the Prophet (s) recited the prayer of Ibrahim (as): "My Lord! Lo! They have led many of mankind astray. But whoso followeth me, he verily is of me. And whoso disobeyeth me -- Still Thou art Forgiving, Merciful" (14:36). Then he recited the saying of `Isa (as): "If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them (lo! they are Thy slaves)" (5:118). Then he raised his hands and said: "My Community, my Community!" and he wept. Allah said: "O Gabriel, go to Muhammad and ask him what causes him to weep." When Gabriel came and asked him he told him, upon which Gabriel returned and told God and God knows better than him, and He said: "O Gabriel, go to Muhammad and tell him: We shall make thee glad concerning thy Community and We shall not displease you." (A reference to 93:5) - Tirmidhi (hasan sahih) and Ibn Maja [Ihya 4:2989 n.2]: Abu ibn Ka`b narrated that the Prophet (s) said: "On the Day of Judgment I shall be the Imam of prophets and their spokesman and the owner of their intercession and I say this without pride." (A reference to 4:41) - Tirmidhi (hasan gharib) [Ihya 4:2993]: From Anas, similar to the one before but applying to all people. - Tirmidhi (hasan gharib sahih) [Ihya 4:2993]: Abu Hurayra narrates that the Prophet (s) said: "I shall stand before my Lord Glorious and Mighty and I shall be adorned with a garment from the garments of Paradise, after which I shall stand to the right of the Throne where none of creation will stand except myself." - Tirmidhi (gharib): Ibn `Abbas narrates that the Prophet (s) said [Ihya 4:2993]: "Some people close to the Prophet (s) came and waited for him. When he came out he approached them and heard them saying: What a wonder it is that God Almighty and Glorious took one of His creation as His intimate Friend -- Ibrahim (as) -- while another one said: What is more wonderful than His speech to Musa (as), to whom He spoke directly! Yet another one said: And `Isa (as) is God's word and His spirit, while another one said: Adam was chosen by God. The Prophet said: I heard your words, and everything you said is indeed true, and I myself am the Beloved of God (Habibullah) and I say this without pride, and I carry the flag of glory on the Day of Judgment and am the first intercessor and the first whose intercession is accepted, and the first to stir the circles of Paradise so that God will open it for me and I shall enter it together with the poor among my Community, and I say this without pride. I am the most honored of the First and the Last and I say this without pride." - Bukhari and Muslim: Jabir narrated that the Prophet (s) said [Ihya 4:2989]: "I have been given five things which no prophet was given before me: - I was made victor over my enemies through fear struck in their heart; - I was permitted to take the booty of war; - The whole earth was made a place of prostration for me and its soil ritually pure, so when the time to pray comes upon anyone of my Community, let him pray there and then; - I was given shafa`a (intercession/mediation with God); - Every prophet was sent to his people in particular and I was sent to all peoples. - Tirmidhi (hasan) and Ibn Maja [Ihya 4:2989]: Abu Sa`id al-Khudri narrated that the Prophet (s) said: "I am the leader of human beings and I say this without pride. I am the first whom the earth will give up when it cleaves, and I am the first intercessor and the first whose intercession is accepted. I hold the flag of glory in my hand, and under it comes Adam and everyone else." - Bukhari and Muslim: Anas and Abu Hurayra respectively narrate that the Prophet (s) said [Ihya 4:2989-2990]: "Every prophet has a request that is fulfilled, and I want to reserve my request of intercession for my Community for the Day of Judgment." - Ahmad and Tabarani (hasan) [Ihya 4:2990]: Burayda narrates that the Prophet (s) said: "Verily I shall intercede on the Day of Judgment for more men than there are stones and clods of mud on the earth." - Bukhari and Muslim [Ihya 4:2990-2992 and Bukhari, Tawhid]: Abu Hurayra narrates a long hadith wherein the Prophet (s) intercedes and his intercession is accepted when all other prophets are powerless to intercede. In Bukhari's version, the Prophet (s) intercedes and is accepted four times: - For those who have a grain of faith in their heart;=7F - For those who have a mustard seed of faith in their heart; - For those who have less than that of faith in their heart; - For those who ever said: "La ilaha illallah" ("There is no god but God alone"). b) Intercession of special members of the Prophet's (s) Community: 4.b.1) In their lifetime for the living - Bukhari [Istisqa']: Annas narrated: Whenever drought threatened them, `Umar ibn al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through the mediation of al-`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib [istasqa bi-l-`Abbas]. He [`Umar] used to say: "O Allah! We used to ask you through the mediation of our Prophet [kunna natawassalu ilayka bi nabiyyina] and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask You through the mediation of our Prophet's uncle, so bless us with rain." And so it would rain. 4.b.2) In the afterlife - [? Ihya' 4:2992 n.1] Tirmidhi (hasan), Ibn Maja, and Hakim: Abu Imama narrated that the Prophet (s) said: "More men will enter Paradise through the intercession of a certain man than there are people in the tribes of Rabi`ah and Mudar," and that the elders considered that this was `Uthman ibn `Affan. - Tirmidhi (hasan sahih), Ibn Maja, and Hakim (sahih) [Ihya 4:2992 n. 1]: Abu Abi-l-Jad`a narrated that the Prophet (s) said: "More men will enter Paradise through the intercession of one man than there are people in the tribe of Banu Tamim." They asked him: "Other than you?" He said: "Other than me," and it was said Uways al-Qarani was meant. 4.c) Intercession of the common believers among the Prophet's (s) Community: 4.c.1a) In their lifetime for the living - Allah said: "Whoso makes a righteous intercession shall partake of the good that ensues therefrom." (4:85) - Bukhari and Muslim: Abu Musa al-Ash`ari relates that whenever a needy person came to the Holy Prophet he would turn to those present and say: "Intercede for him, you will have your reward and Allah causes that which He likes to issue from the tongue of His Prophet." 4.c.1b) In their lifetime for the dead - Muslim [jana'iz]: `A'ishah reports the Prophet (s) as saying: "If a company of Muslims numbering one hundred pray over a dead person, all of them interceding for him, their intercession for him will be accepted." - Muslim [jana'iz]: Ibn `Abbas said: "I have heard the Prophet (s) say: If any Muslim dies and forty men who associate nothing with Allah stand over his body in prayer, Allah will accept them as intercessors for him." - Ahmad [4:79, 4:100] and others: In many traditions the number of acceptable intercessors in the funeral prayer is reduced to three rows of men, even if the number is under forty. Nawawi says the scholars of usul al-fiqh adduce these traditions also. 4.c.2) In the afterlife - Tirmidhi (hasan), al-Bazzar: Abu Sa`id al-Khudri and Anas respectively narrate that the Prophet (s) said [Ihya 4:2992]: "One will be told: Stand, O So-and-so, and make intercession, and he will stand and make intercession for his tribe and his family and for one man or two men or more according to his works." 5. Overview of the events of the Last Day at the stage of intercession. "Islamic [belief] is that for salvation intercession will take place at two stages: on the Day of Judgment and after the sinners' entry into hell. "On the Day of Judgment it will take place first before the divine questioning; it is the Prophet Muhammad (s) who will intercede first for the forgiveness of his community. Accepting this intercession, God will grant him permission to take to Paradise through its right gate (al-bab al-ayman) built for them especially, all those people of his community who are entitled to it without giving an acount of their actions. [Bukhari: Tafsir 17:5; Muslim, Zuhd 14; Tirmidhi, Qyamat 10; Ahmad 2:436] "Then when, following the weighing of actions in the Balance, the verdict of damnation will be passed to numerous groups of believers who commit major sins, intercessors, including all prophets, will intercede for the forgiveness of many of them. The Prophet (s) said: "My intercession is for those people of my Community who commit major sins." [Tirmidhi, Qyamat 11; Abu Dawud, Sunna 31; Ibn Maja, Zuhd 37; Ahmad 3:213] God out of mercy will accept... and save a large number of sinners. This salvation is free from damnation. "The second stage of intercession is after the sinners being like coal as a result of constant burning in Hell-fire for a long time. [Muslim, Iman 306; Bukhari, Riqaq 56; Ibn Maja, Zuhd 37; Ahmad 3:79] When they are suffering thus, intercessors will pray to God for the rescue of many of them. The result of this will be divine forgiveness of them before the end of their redemptive punishment. This is salvation after damnation. "Who will intercede in the Hereafter? Not only the angels and all prophets, but also those believers who have high status with God, such as saints, sufis, religious scholars, and other pious men [and women], will be able to intercede for others." Dr. Muhammad Abul Quasem, "Salvation of the Soul and Islamic Devotions" (Kegan Paul Intrnl. 1981) p. 44. See also Ibn Taymiyya, "al`Aqida al-Wasitiyya" ["The Mediating Doctrine"], chapter on Intercession. May God send blessings and peace upon the Intercessor Brought Near to Him, our Master Muhammad, and upon his Family and Companions, and may He grant us his Prophet's intercession on the Day of Reckoning. From tariqas-approval Sun Oct 22 13:50:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04281; Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:50:26 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04235; Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:50:22 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Sun, 22 Oct 1995 13:50:20 GMT Received: from deneb by venus id ; Sun, 22 Oct 1995 13:50:19 GMT Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 13:50:18 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <9510201752.AA04650@kirin.Tymnet.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu 'alaykum, > I don't see why not. If you allow my example of the rabbit and the rock, > then you must also allow that the human being could have been replaced > by a holograph that skewered his organ. Or maybe a creature from another > dimension > placed memory implants into your brain and the real event never occured > at all. We must investigate! As outlandish as these two explanations may > seem, I am sure that other people could come up with at least 100 > more feasable scientific explanations. First of all I accept that hundreds of explanations could be suggested for the phenomenon. But I would not accept calling any of them "scientific". Scientists would not accept an Enterprise-related explanation as a "scientific" one because they don't believe in the Enterprise, and naturally, they don't believe in the beaming up / beaming down business. The same could be said about the implantation explanation. No such a technique for obtaining such a result is accessible to scientists yet. So, for a scientist both explanations could have come out of fiction not science, at least for the time being. I am merely describing the suggested explanations from the viewpoint of a conventional scientist. However, I have to add that personally I think that conventional sceince can by no means have the last word on matters. You may not have meant by the word "scientific" the above examples. In this case I would like also to stress that there are no explanations based on agreed scientific principles that could account for the Deliberately Caused Bodily Damage (DCBD) feats. This is why many scientist would prefer to deny the existence of these phenomena rather than labor to find a scientific explanations. BTW, the example of the *rock 2 rabbit* differs in essential aspects from DCBD feats. An important difference is that the suggested example is most probably a one-off event, whereas DCBD feats are repeatable phenomena which could be repeated at request anytime and at any place. This means that DCBD feats could be put under controlled laboratory scrutiny. I guess I don't need to go into further details as for what this would mean in terms of verifying the genuineness of the phenomena. > Anyway, I do not believe that a person can skewer a vital organ without > bleeding, and I won't believe it until I see it for myself. I appreciate and respect your stance because I think this is a proper response of reason. If you send me your mail address I would send you some material that could be useful. > What does this mean: > {Thus do We make it into > the hearts of the guilty. They do not believe in it} [15:12-13] > > Is it saying that the Qur'an does or does not make it into the > hearts of the guilty? Sorry for the unclear translation. The meaning is that the guilty would not believe in the Holy Qur'an. I cited the verse to say that one cannot evaluate anything merely from people's response to it. If I recall correctly, Sayyidina 'Isa (peace be upon him) is reported to have said "do not throw pearls on the route of swine, for they would trample on them". > I don't think that I would agree with this. Is this world being > drawn more and more into pure materialism? I would guess that about 1/10 of > 1% of the world's popoulation do not believe some sort of non material > spirituality. Even here in the US of A only about 10% are non believers > ( if I recall my stats correctly ) I think that what is missing for > many is an understanding of the role that the spiritual world plays > in ones life. What effect does it have? Why is it important? I have misrepresented the idea; by materialism I wanted to refer to behavior rather than hollow belief. Belief in "some sort of non material spirituality" is not necessarily a belief that implies moral behavioral commitments. Additionally, belief is not necessarily followed by appropriate behavior. Life is very much full of the "unknown", the "unexpected", moments that reveal to the person his weakness, such as times of illnesses and catastrophes, and many other things and circumstances each of which makes the belief in immaterial reality and entities acceptable and even desirable because it satisfies certain needs. This belief is not necessarily reflected in people's behavior. This is a result already implied in your reply and I totally agree with it. Therefore, people's spirituality cannot be measured, for example, from their answers to a question such as "do you belief in existence of non-material entities?" in a questionnaire by Somebody's Psychological Association. But what could the miracle do? From historical sources one learns that miracles can strongly influence people's lives. Miracles could be as much beneficial for believers as for non-believers. Miracles make the person, for sometime, in a closer contact with the hidden reality that he might have or have not believed in. But was all this only in the past? I have closely seen how people from different backgrounds react to DCBD feats performed by dervishes. Some people have their lives changed dramatically after seeing such perfromances or after miraculous events have happened to them. A practicing Muslim can be strongly affected by seeing DCBD feats or the occurrence of miracles though he already believes in miracles, the spiritual world, ...etc. It seems to me that the only person the belief of whom would not increase by witnessing miracles is that who has himself become a source of miracles, such as the Sufi Masters. Such a person sees and lives in both this world and the spiritual world in the same time, and therefore, miracles would not bring him closer to the spiritual world. For us, as ordinary people who have successfully managed to imprison themselves in this world, I think miracles can have enormous effects. > Do different laws take over or does Allah, who is beyond all laws, take over? Of course Allah Ta'ala is behind all laws, were they normal or paranormal. Thanks for the thought-provoking message. Salaam Louay From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 09:55:09 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26795; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:55:09 -0400 Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi (kantti-fddi.Helsinki.FI) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26692; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:55:05 -0400 Received: from katk.helsinki.fi (katk.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.2]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA25675 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:54:51 +0200 Received: from KATK/SpoolDir by katk.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 23 Oct 95 15:54:58 EET Received: from SpoolDir by KATK (Mercury 1.21); 23 Oct 95 15:54:39 EET From: "Morteza Elmolhoda" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:54:31 EET DST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: ***Any Sufi society in Michigan?*** Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <106E1EC0173@katk.helsinki.fi> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalaamu Alaikum va rahmatullah I am going to travel to Ann Arbor (Michigan) on 19.11. (Insha'allah), to visit my advisor professor. I would like to know whether there is any sufi gathering or society in that area. All sort of information is appreciated. Blessings Morteza From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 02:52:46 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02581; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:51:12 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02514; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:51:07 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14397; Mon, 23 Oct 95 09:51:00 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 23 Oct 95 9:51:00 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id JAA09747; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:50:58 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00452; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:52:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:52:46 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510231652.AA00452@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > First of all I accept that hundreds of explanations could be suggested > for the phenomenon. But I would not accept calling any of them "scientific". > Scientists would not accept an Enterprise-related explanation as a The idea was that the miracle would provoke scientific investigation rather than spiritual expansion in this day and age. > You may not have meant by the word "scientific" the above examples. In > this case I would like also to stress that there are no explanations based on > agreed scientific principles that could account for the Deliberately Caused > Bodily Damage (DCBD) feats. Could this be because such things do not exits? Have you yourself ever seen this? I mean; been there up close, less than three feet away in good light with no viewing obstructions such as clothing, able to touch and examine the results? > This is why many scientist would prefer to deny > the existence of these phenomena rather than labor to find a scientific > explanations. I believe that 'scientist' would jump at the oppertunity to account for such feats if the feats were easily demonstrable. > {..........} DCBD feats are repeatable > phenomena which could be repeated at request anytime and at any place. > This means that DCBD feats could be put under controlled laboratory > scrutiny. I guess I don't need to go into further details as for what > this would mean in terms of verifying the genuineness of the phenomena. > Please let us all know when and where the next demonstration is. I am open to changing my position. :) > I appreciate and respect your stance because I think this is a proper > response of reason. If you send me your mail address I would send you > some material that could be useful. The only thing that I can imagine that could be 'useful' would be a demonstration. It would also have to be within driving distance of San Francisco CA. > > > > What does this mean: > > {Thus do We make it into > > the hearts of the guilty. They do not believe in it} [15:12-13] > > > > Is it saying that the Qur'an does or does not make it into the > > hearts of the guilty? > > > Sorry for the unclear translation. The meaning is that the guilty would not > believe in the Holy Qur'an. Yes, they do not believe, but do they reject it because it 'does not' enter their hearts, or do they reject it 'even though it does' enter into their hearts? I think this is important. > But what could the miracle do? From historical sources one learns that > miracles can strongly influence people's lives. I am more concerned with today than history. Just because it was true in the past does not mean it is true for today. I believe that the danger in looking for small miracles is that they can be a detourant on the path to seeing 'The Miracle'. Allah Ta'ala expects bigger things from us than he used to. The age of miracles is finished and the age of 'The Miracle' is being ushered in by the angels. As any age passes into another, there is a blending between the two and for a while, both ages exist in equal measure. This happened many years ago. But I could be wrong. > > Do different laws take over or does Allah, who is beyond all laws, take over? > > Of course Allah Ta'ala is behind all laws, were they normal or paranormal. I don't believe that Allah needs to work via laws. If he did need to work via laws, then this would make laws higher than Allah. Thanks for you patients with me. Salaam, -Michael- From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 12:21:54 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00538; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:22:52 -0400 Received: from centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00429; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:22:47 -0400 Received: from centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu by centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with SMTP id QAA12512; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:21:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:21:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Rashid Kysia X-Sender: kysia@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: ***Any Sufi society in Michigan?*** In-Reply-To: <106E1EC0173@katk.helsinki.fi> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalaamu alaikum, In response to your post, there is an active tariqat here in Ann Arbor. We are Nashbandi. Currently, we are having dhikr and sohbet twice a week. Also, nearby we have established a retreat center. If you wish to connect with us, please feel free to call me (Rashid) at 994-7984. Incidently, you may be in time for several special happenings. First, on Nov. 18 (Saturday) at 8:00pm there will be a special program with Morroccan music, IndoPaki poetry, Indonesian dance/marial art and a dhikr sponsored by Haqqani Sufi Trust. Second, our shaykh, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani may be in town around this time. He is representative of Naqshbandi grandshaykh Maulana Shaykh Nazim Qubrisi in this hemisphere. If you contact me anytime, I can give you more details. Peace, Rashid Kysia (313)994-7984 kysia@umich.edu On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Morteza Elmolhoda wrote: > Assalaamu Alaikum va rahmatullah > > I am going to travel to Ann Arbor (Michigan) on 19.11. (Insha'allah), > to visit my advisor professor. I would like to know whether there is > any sufi gathering or society in that area. All sort of information > is appreciated. > > Blessings > Morteza > > From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 13:12:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23326; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:12:44 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23018; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:12:31 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA11624 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:12:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:12:29 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951023171228_130900650@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A while ago i asked if there were any Sufi word for the state of being able to percieve a miracle. Hamid wrote to suggest the word transmission. After a week or more of consideration I am moved by the depth of this answer. Indeed, it is even true that some religious groups feel that transmission can be accomplished by force, by winnng debates, or impressive displays. This is particularily true of Christian and Islamic groups, which is very interesting since it isn't true at all (as far as I know) about Jewish groups with whom we share lineage. Neither is it very true of Bhudist groups or, as far as I know, with the Hindu groups. I wonder why it is so much the case with us? What is the drive to transmission by dint of being right? I also wonder if different Sufi groups believe in this kind of transmission. It does seem that some representatives of some tariqas on this network do think this way and it is curious to me. Is it a consequence of our (Islamic and Christian) roots in the Greek tradition and belief in reason, or is it our development of the masculine dominance and the rejection of the unreasonable, or are there other possible roots? Perhaps, the question could be phrased another way, why would one want a scientific explaination of a miriacle. Is the purpose to get a scientist to admit that there is a god (in other words to convert the scientist)? When you put it in terms of transmission I see purpose in a miracle, it is the transmission that makes the miracle, otherwise it is just a phenomena that someone wants to debate about. To a primitive tribe a coke bottle dropping out of the sky is unexplainable and could be the cause of much debate, in the end proving that there is a god but s/he is crazy. Anyway, thank you Habib. Asha From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 16 02:57:08 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27613; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:18:58 -0400 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27517; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:18:54 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzmtd05792; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:17:33 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Mon, 23 Oct 95 15:20:01 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Mon, 16 Oct 1995 02:57:14 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com, wh@seas.upenn.edu Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 02:57:08 GMT+6 Subject: hello from Daniel and Khadim Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you. We have not been properly connected to our Mailserver for about two weeks. Assuming this message gets through, we'll review the back-log of postings, and begin contributing here again. Lots of love to all our friends! The 18th Annual Northwest Sufi Camp directed by Khadim was a success, and she is looking forward to her khilwat co-guided with Murshida Rabia Ana Perez at Breitenbush in Oregon in November. Daniel is revising and polishing his two study guides to the Mevlevi and Chisti tariqas, and his Niffari translations, for pre-publication. Lots of love to all our friends! -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 04:14:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00159; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:49:13 -0400 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00058; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:49:08 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzmtf10403; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:48:45 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Mon, 23 Oct 95 15:40:07 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 04:14:42 GMT From: Caravan To: wh@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 04:14:35 GMT+6 Subject: hi ate us Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you, We seem to be hooked up again, oh the treacheries of our Mailserver, so Khadim Khadija-'Ashqi Chishti and I wanted to send our salams while we have an apparent opportunity. If we're disconnected again, you can try surface mail, still only 32 cents, c/o POB 1721 Portland Oregon 97207 USA. Khadim's retreat to be co-led with Murshida Rabia Ana Perez Chisti at Breitenbush in the Oregon Cascades is sold out. Please remember them in your prayers. I'm still working on getting the revised versions of the Chisti and Mevlevi study guides into printed form, a more time- consuming process than I realized, so I can get back to a pre- publication revision of Niffari's works. We're both getting ready for Portland Oregon's first-ever Mevlevi muqabele sama' celebration 12/16, to be followed with one in Seattle on Sheb-i Arus/Urs 12/17. For info, in Oregon 503-254-5061, in Seattle 206-784-1532. Mi'raj an-Nabi is December 18th this year, I think, and the Urs of Hazrat Mu'in-uddin Hasan Sanjari Chisti is 6th Rajab, which is this year on November 28th, I think. Peace and blessings upon Rasulu'Llah and the sanctified men and women of this path. Lots of love to all of you! - Sh Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 19:47:50 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13230; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:05:22 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13004; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:05:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA29641; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:00:31 +1000 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:47:50 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <951023171228_130900650@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > Indeed, it is even true that some religious groups feel that transmission > can be accomplished by force, by winnng debates, or impressive displays. This > is particularily true of Christian and Islamic groups, which is very > interesting since it isn't true at all (as far as I know) about Jewish groups > with whom we share lineage. Neither is it very true of Bhudist groups or, as > far as I know, with the Hindu groups. I wonder why it is so much the case > with us? What is the drive to transmission by dint of being right? I think it is because both Christianity and Islam tends to encourage their followers to "spread the message". I think this isn't the case with Judaism and Hinduism... maybe because Judaism originated as a religion tied to a specific cultural/national group. This may be wrong, but with Hinduism to be a good Hindu you have to be "reincarnated" into it, so there is no point in converting (but please correct me if I am mistaken). I think Buddhism does encourage people to spread the Buddha's teachings, though, doesn't it? (The guy who brought the Buddhist scrolls from India to China crosses my mind, but his name escapes me.) I also think such debates are often mostly an exercise in "feel-goodism" (though not always). > I also > wonder if different Sufi groups believe in this kind of transmission. It does > seem that some representatives of some tariqas on this network do think this > way and it is curious to me. My experience is limited, but I think there is a difference between teaching (and setting an example) and debating.... my impression is that Sufis encourage the former (by those qualified), but not the latter, but as I said, my experience is probably more limited than most others here! Wassalam, Fred From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 10:17:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02019; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:30:52 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01950; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:30:48 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA03206; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:30:21 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA24028; Mon, 23 Oct 95 17:30:40 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA18744; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:17:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:17:14 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9510240017.AA18744@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Hazrat Bayazid Bistami [pt. 3] Content-Type: X-sun-attachment Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Charset: us-ascii X-Sun-Content-Lines: 10 Here is the whole excerpt... --mateen siddiqui _________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html in nine languages ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: default X-Sun-Data-Description: default X-Sun-Data-Name: Bayazid.txt X-Sun-Charset: us-ascii X-Sun-Content-Lines: 289 Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami (r) I have planted love in my heart, and shall not be distracted until Judgment Day. You have wounded my heart when You came near me. My desire grows, my love is bursting. He has poured me a sip to drink. He has quickened my heart with the cup of love. Which He has filled at the ocean of friendship. Bayazid. excerpted from The Naqshbandi Sufi Way: History and Guidebook of the Saints of the Golden Chain, by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, KAZI, 1995. [Sayiddina Ja'far as-Sadiq] passed on the secret of the Golden Chain to his successor, Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami, otherwise more commonly known as Bayazid al-Bistami.... Sayiddina Bayazid's grandfather was a Zoroastrian from Persia. Bayazid made a detailed study of the statutes of Islamic law (shari'a) and practiced self-denial (zuhd). All his life he was assiduous in the practice of his religious obligations and in observing voluntary worship. He urged his disciples (murids) to put their affairs in the hands of God and he encouraged them to accept sincerely the pure doctrine of the Oneness of God (tawhid). This doctrine consisted of five essentials: to keep the obligations according to the Qur'an and Sunnah, to always speak the truth, to keep the heart free from hatred, to avoid forbidden food and to shun innovations (bida'a). One of his sayings was, "I have come to know God through God, and I knew what is other than God with the light of God." He said, "God has granted his servants favours to come to Him. Instead, they are fascinated with the favours and are drifting further from Him." And he said, praying to God, "O God You have created this creation without its knowledge and You have placed on it a trust without its will. If You don't help it who will help them? Bayazid said the ultimate goal of the Sufi is to experience the vision of God in the Hereafter. To that effect he said, "There are special servants of God who, if God veiled Himself from their sight in Paradise, would implore Him to take them out of Paradise just as the inhabitants of the fire implore Him to release them from Hell." About God's love to His servant he said, "If God loves His servant He will grant three attributes that are the proofs of His Love: generosity like the generosity of the ocean, and favor like the favor of the sun in its giving of light and modesty like the modesty of the earth. The true lover never considers any affliction to be huge and never decreases his worship because of his pure faith." A man asked Bayazid, "show me a deed by which I will approach my Lord." He said, "love the Friends of God in order that they will love you. Love his saints until they love you. Because God looks at the hearts of His saints and when He sees your name engraved in the heart of one of His saints He will forgive you." Many Muslim scholars both in his time and after his time, said that Bayazid al-Bistami was the first to spread the reality of annihilation (fana'). Even the extremely strict scholar Ibn Taymiyya, who came in the 7th Century Hijri, admired Bayazid for this and considered him to be one of his teachers. Ibn Taymiyya said about him, "to me annihilation is divided into two categories: one is for the perfect of the Prophets and saints, and one is from seekers from among the saints and pious people (saliheen). Abayazid al-Bistami is from the first class from among those who experienced annihilation from among the prophets and saints, which means the complete renunciation of annihilation in other than God, by which he accepts none except God, he worships none except Him, and he asks from none except Him." He continues quoting Bayazid saying, "ureed an laa ureed illa maa yureed" "I want not to want except what He wants." It was reported about Bayazid that he said: 'I divorced this worldly life thrice in order that I could not return to it and I moved to My Lord Alone, without anyone and I called on Him Alone for help by saying 'O God, O God, no one remains for me except You.' At that time I came to know the sincerity of the supplication in my heart and the reality of the helplessness of my ego. Immediately the acceptance of that supplication was perceived by my heart. This opened to me a vision that I as no longer in existence and I vanished completely from myself into His-self. And He brought up all that I had divorced before in front of me, adorningd me as it were with His light and His Attributes." Bayazid said, "subhanee maa a'adhama sha'anee" "Glory to Me, for My greatest Glory!" And he continues saying, "I set forth in an ocean where the [earlier] prophets were still on its shore." And he said, "ta'atuka lee Ya Rabbu 'aadhamu min ta'atee laka" "O My Lord Your obedience to me is greater than my obedience to You." This means, O God, You are granting my request and still I have yet to obey You. He said: "I have made four mistakes in my preliminary steps in this way: I thought that I remember Him, that I know Him, that I love Him and that I seek Him, but when I reached Him I saw that His remembering of me preceded my remembrance of Him, His knowledge about me preceded my knowledge of Him and His love towards me was more ancient than my love towards Him, and He sought me in order that I would begin to seek Him." Adh-Dhahabi quoted him in many great matters, among which were, "subhanee maa 'aadahama shaanee" ..."maa fil-jubba ill-Allah" which means, "Glory be to me, for my greatest glory" and "there is nothing in this cloak except God." Ibn Taymiyya explains this saying, "he didn't see himself as existing any longer, but only saw the existence of God, due to his self-denial." adh-Dhahabi said, "He said, 'O God, what is Your Fire, it is nothing. Let me be the one person to go into Your Fire and everyone else will be saved. And what is Your Paradise? It is a toy for children. And who are those unbelievers whom You want to torture them? They are Your servants. Forgive them." Al-'Allam Ahmad bin al-Hajar, in explaining the above extraordinary statements said, "God knows the secret and God knows the heart. Whatever he spoke from the Knowledge of Realities the people of his time did not understood what he said, so they condemned him and exiled seven times from his city. Every time he was exiled, terrible afflictions struck his city until the people would call him back, take intiation from him and accept him as a real saint. One time Bayazid said, "God the Most Just called me into His Presence and said to me, 'O Bayazid how did you arrive in My Presence?' I replied 'by renouncing the world (zuhd)' He said, 'the value of the world is as the wing of a mosquito. What kind of renunciation have you come with?' I said, 'O God forgive me.' Then I said, 'O God, I came to you by dependence on You (tawakkul alayk).' Then He said, 'Did I ever betray the trust which I guaranteed to you?' I said, 'O God forgive me.' Then I said, 'O God I came to you through You.' At that time God said, 'We are accepting you now.'" He said, "I stood with the pious and I didn't find any progress with them. I stood with the warriors in the cause, (waqaftu ma'a al-mujahideen) and I didn't find a single step of progress with them. I stood with the those who pray excessively and those who fast excessively and I didn't make a footstep of progress. Then I said, 'O God what is the way to You?' God said, 'Leave yourself and come.'" Ibrahim Khawwaas said, "The way that God showed to him, with the most delicate word and the simplest explanation, 'leave your self-interest in the two worlds, the earthly life and the Hereafter, leave everything other than Me behind.' And that is the best and easiest way to come to God, Exalted and Glorious and it is the most perfect and highest state of Unity, not to accept anything or anyone except God the Most High.'" One of the followers of Dhul Nun al-Misri was following Abayazid. Abayazid asked him, "Whom do you want?" He replied, "I want Abayazid." He said, "O my son, Abayazid is wanting Abayazid for forty years and is still not finding him." The disciple of Dhul Nun returned to him and narrated that incident to him. On hearing that, Dhul Nun fainted. He explained it later saying, "My master Abayazid has lost himself in God's love. That caused him to try to find himself again." They asked him, "teach us about how you reached the true Reality." He said, "by training myself, by seclusion." They said, "how?" He said, "I called my self to accept God, Glorious and Exalted and it resisted. I took an oath that I will not drink water and I will not taste sleep until I brought my self under my control." Then he said, "O God it is not strange that I love You because I am a weak servant, but it is strange that You love me when You are the King of Kings." He said, "For thirty years, when I wanted to remember God and do dhikr I used to wash my tongue and my mouth for His glorification." And he said, "As long as the servants thinks there are among those submitted to God (Muslims) someone lower than him, that person still has pride." They asked him, "describe your day and describe your night." He said "I don't have a day and I don't have a night, because day and night are for those who have characteristics of creation." He said, "Hunger is a cloud. If a servant becomes hungry, God will shower his heart with wisdom." He said, "If God gave me permission for intercession, first I will intercede for those who harmed me and those who denied me." They said to him, "the key for Paradise is 'laa ilaha ill-Allah' [witnessing that there is no god except God] He said, "it is true, but the key opens the lock. The lock of 'laa ilaha ill-Allah' is four: a tongue which doesn't lie nor backbite; a heart without betrayal; a stomach without forbidden or doubtful provision; deeds without desire nor innovation." He said, "the ego always looks at the world and the spirit always looks towards the next life. Gnosis is always directed to God, Glorious and Exalted. Whoever's ego defeats him is from those who are destroyed and whoever soul is victorious over his self, he is from among the pious, and whoever's gnosis overcomes his ego, is from among the God-fearing." He said, "If God will give me permission to intercede for all the people of my time I will not be proud, because I am only interceding for a piece of clay." ad-Dailami said, "One time I asked Abdur Rahman bin Yahya about the state of trust in God (tawakkul). He said, "If you put your hand in the mouth of a lion, don't be afraid of other than God.' I went in my heart to visit and ask Bayazid about this matter. I knocked and I heard from inside, 'Wasn't it enough what Abdur Rahman said to you. Because you came only to ask and not with the intention of visiting me.' I understood and I came again another time one year later, knocking at his door. This time he answered, 'welcome my son, this time you came to me as a visitor and not as a questioner.'" They asked him "when does a man become a man?" He said, "when he knows the mistakes of his self and he busies himself in correcting them." He said, "I was twelve years the blacksmith of my self, and five years the polishing the mirror of my heart and for one year I was looking in that mirror and I saw on my belly a girdle. I tried hard to cut it and I spent twelve years in that effort. Then I looked in that mirror and I saw inside my body a girdle. I spent five years cutting it. Then I spent one year looking at what I had done. And God opened for me the vision of all creations. And I saw all of them dead. And I prayed four takbiras of funeral prayer over them." [see the commentary of Imam an-Nawawi on this statement] And he said one time: "If the Throne and what are around it and what is in it was placed in the corner of the heart of a Knower, it will be lost completely inside it." And one time al-'Abbas ibn Hamza said, "I prayed behind Abayazid the noon prescribed prayer, and when he raised his hands to inititate the prayer by saying 'God is Greatest' ('Allahu Akbar') he was unable to pronounce the words, fearing God's Holy Name and his entire body was trembling and the sound of bones breaking emerged from him. I was so surprised fear overcame my heart." Abayazid died in 261 H. It is said he is buried in two places, one is Damascus and the other is Bistam in Persia. Then the secret was passed was passed from Abayazid al-Bistami to Abul Hassan al-Kharqani. References 1. page 218, vol. 10,Majmu'a Fatawa Ibn Taymiyya Ilm as-Sulook, Ibn Taymiyya, Cairo. 2. p. 30-32., Shatahaat as-Sufiyya, Badawi, Kuwait, 1978 From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 14:46:08 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13937; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:46:19 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13831; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:46:16 -0400 Received: from mugcnx9 (mugcnx9.gclab.missouri.edu [128.206.48.19]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA24038 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:46:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199510240046.TAA24038@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by mugcnx9 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA00349; Mon, 23 Oct 95 19:46:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 19:46:08 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamo alaikum wa rahmat Allah, I may not be an authority on Sufi thinking, but I am a person that tries to sincrely believe in God, and with regard to these miracles of certain awliya, the only opinion that I have on them is that they are NOT a proof of sainthood, and by no means should we base our faith in such things. Here is an example of what I mean: a Christian was trying to convert me once and all he was talking about was miracle of Jesus - upon whom be peace. He would not talk of anything save that. I asked him, "Yeah, that's great, but what does that have to do with me?" Here he is telling me about miracles that took place 2000 years ago! So I am supposed to believe in this? Also, there are MANY con artists. For example, there is one Indian individual thatis known for disproving miracles and the like. He has travelled all over India, and first he performs some miracles for all the people to see. Things that are so unbelievably real, he performs them: walking on fire, putting fire on his face, pearcing his body (with no holes remaining), producing food items, you name it. This guy, he does all this stuff, then afterward, he shows the crowd how he did it. It was astonishing. Whenever there is a claim that somebody performs miracles, he checks it out. He himself believes in miracles, but he wants to believe in the real thing, not some con-artist. The point is this: miracles ARE a reality, but there are many fakes. A person should by no means at all base his/her faith on the grounds of miracles. As a side note, there are many people in the past, such as St. Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas, that did not believe in Sayidina Muhammad - upon whom be peace - for the sole reason that they though that he - upon whom be peace - did not perform miracles! To think that they did not believe in some body because of miracles. That's really pathetic. If they had only known, that Sayyidina Mihammad had performed MANY miracles indeed. And if anyone would like, I have a book that I am willing to give (free of charge) that lists flat out, many of his miracles. Please contact me. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 16:59:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24410; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 02:59:38 -0400 Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24401; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 02:59:36 -0400 Received: from [204.157.98.119] (sea-ts2-p01.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.119]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id AAA20415 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 23:59:40 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re:...Miracles and Transmission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > Perhaps, the question could be phrased another way, why would one want a >scientific explaination of a miriacle. Is the purpose to get a scientist to >admit that there is a god (in other words to convert the scientist)? When you >put it in terms of transmission I see purpose in a miracle, it is the >transmission that makes the miracle, (much snipping) > Asha Assalam Alaikum This BB (or whatever the proper appelation) is a petrie dish for the question of transmission. The opening and strengthening of the soul happens through as many doors as there are human personalities and ways of listening. Some profit by argumentation, some by miracles, some by sitting in the presence of teacher - no sound, some by listening to stories. Given our lowly states, we tend to resonate to our singular frequencies. I am told that the shaikhs speak to us one step above our state. However we listen, they accomodate us within the bounds of their instruments - those with miracles give them, those with stories give those. We are attracted according to these personalities. I haven't found the discussions on the investigations of miracles particularly interesting, but that is just me. The stories sent by Fouad, however, get me every time. Diversion comes when we get lost in our frequency, our personality for its own sake; too much argument, too many mircles, too many stories. What is the question? Peace and Blessings, Habib N. From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 12:21:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24526; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:21:56 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24437; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:21:45 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:21:42 GMT Received: from bliss.dur.ac.uk by venus id ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:21:41 GMT Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:21:40 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <199510240046.TAA24038@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu 'alaykum, > with regard to these miracles > of certain awliya, the only opinion that I have on them is that they > are NOT a proof of sainthood, and by no means should we base our > faith in such things. A wali or a Sufi Master is not known to be so for performing miraculous feats only. But this does not mean that miracles are not beneficial. Your above argument applies for the miracles of the Prophets (peace be upon them) also. Belief in the prophethood of any prophet would not be based only on the miracles he would perform. However, miracles had an important role in developing the belief of people in that prophet. Miracles were not performed by Prophets because they were *sufficient* evidence on their prophethood. The same applies to sainthood. I can say with utter confidence that no argument put against the benefits of miracles of the Sufi Masters could not be used similarly against those of the Prophets. > Here is an example of what I mean: a Christian was trying to convert > me once and all he was talking about was miracle of Jesus - upon whom > be peace. He would not talk of anything save that. I asked him, > "Yeah, that's great, but what does that have to do with me?" Here he > is telling me about miracles that took place 2000 years ago! So I am > supposed to believe in this? This is why the miracles of the Sufi Masters continued to occur throughout history. They are continuation of the Prophetic miracles, and they are indeed attributed through the spiritual lineage of each Master to the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala 'alayhi wa sallam) himself. > Also, there are MANY con artists. For example, there is one Indian > individual thatis known for disproving miracles and the like. He has > travelled all over India, and first he performs some miracles for all > the people to see. Things that are so unbelievably real, he performs > them: walking on fire, putting fire on his face, pearcing his body > (with no holes remaining), producing food items, you name it. This > guy, he does all this stuff, then afterward, he shows the crowd how > he did it. It was astonishing. Whenever there is a claim that > somebody performs miracles, he checks it out. He himself believes in > miracles, but he wants to believe in the real thing, not some > con-artist. Magicians existed on the days of sayyidina Musa (peace be upon him) but Allah Ta'ala sent him with miracles. The magicians themselves were among the first to believe. So the existence of magicians is no argument against the benefits of miracles. The magician you mention could not have performed any of his feats while being closely scrutinized by specialists. An x-ray examination would reveal that his body was not being pierced. To comment on one aspect of his feats that you mention I would like to say that the feats of the dervishes leave scars and little blood come out of the wounds. This happens with both holes that the skewer causes in the body. > The point is this: miracles ARE a reality, but there are many fakes. > A person should by no means at all base his/her faith on the grounds > of miracles. This is of course true but doesn't mean that miracles don't have benefits. Best regards. Louay From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 14:01:24 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21720; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:27:14 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21623; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:27:07 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:26:19 GMT Received: from bliss.dur.ac.uk by venus id ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:26:18 GMT Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:01:24 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <9510231652.AA00452@kirin.Tymnet.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salaam to all tariqas readers. > The idea was that the miracle would provoke scientific investigation rather > than spiritual expansion in this day and age. They may and they may not provoke the scientific investigation you are referring to. Phenomena that contradict established scientific laws and dogmas can very easity go unnoticed. > > You may not have meant by the word "scientific" the above examples. In > > this case I would like also to stress that there are no explanations based on > > agreed scientific principles that could account for the Deliberately Caused > > Bodily Damage (DCBD) feats. > > Could this be because such things do not exits? Have you yourself ever > seen this? I mean; been there up close, less than three feet away in good light > with no viewing obstructions such as clothing, able to touch and examine > the results? I am talking about these phenomena being tested under laboratory conditions. I have seen these feats performed by dervishes for hundreds of times in their takyas and in the lab. Of course I have seen, touched, and photographed dervishes while they were performing DCBD feats. When piercing parts of the body that are covered by clothing, such as the abdomen, the dervishes take their clothes off those parts. One day I had my body pierced by a skewer and in another occasion a dagger was hammered into my skull. > I believe that 'scientist' would jump at the oppertunity to account for > such feats if the feats were easily demonstrable. This has not been the case with DCBD phenomena. Throughout history travelers in the Islamic world and visitors of various tariqas have recorded observations of these unusual feats. I can think of no good reason as for why the phenomena have been neglected by scientists. This does not mean that there have not been even a single study. There have been a few laboratory investigations in Germany, and the USA in the 70s. > Please let us all know when and where the next demonstration is. I > am open to changing my position. :) > The only thing that I can imagine that could be 'useful' would be > a demonstration. It would also have to be within driving distance > of San Francisco CA. InshaAllah, you will see this demonstration next year. It may be in San Francisco itself but I cannot confirm this now. My intention was to send you some photos and an article on the subject, if you would think that they might be useful then please let me know. > Yes, they do not believe, but do they reject it because it 'does not' enter their > hearts, or do they reject it 'even though it does' enter into their hearts? > I think this is important. I am not sure about what you mean. But the point that I tried to make is that Muslims believe that the Holy Qur'an is the greatest miracle, yet many people have not been benefited from it. So, the benefits of miracles should not be denied because there are some who would not benefit from them. Upon failure to recognize Allah Ta'ala's signs and miracles we have to blame ourselves not the signs. I think everyone agrees on this. > I am more concerned with today than history. Just because it was true in > the past does not mean it is true for today. True logic. My personal experience tells me that miracles can positively effect many people. > I believe that the danger in looking for small miracles is that they can > be a detourant on the path to seeing 'The Miracle'. Allah Ta'ala expects > bigger things from us than he used to. I understand your caution. Miracles, like anything else, can distract the person from the path only if they become an aim themselves, as there should be no aim but Allah Ta'ala. This is why the Sufi Masters instructed their dervishes not to worship Allah Ta'ala on the hope of seeing miracles, or becoming able to do certain extraordinary things. > The age of miracles is finished > and the age of 'The Miracle' is being ushered in by the angels. > As any age passes into another, there is a blending between the two and > for a while, both ages exist in equal measure. This happened many years > ago. I find this very interesting; could you please elaborate more? > > Of course Allah Ta'ala is behind all laws, were they normal or paranormal. > > I don't believe that Allah needs to work via laws. If he did need to work > via laws, then this would make laws higher than Allah. Your conclusion would be true if your "if" statement was true, which is not the case. The word "need" was not in my original reply. He has put the laws and He is the One who replaces them whether temporarily or permanently. Thank you Michael for the thought-provoking posts. Louay From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 06:33:20 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28030; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:34:12 -0400 Received: from cornell.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27985; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:34:09 -0400 Received: from orie.cornell.edu (PIVOT.ORIE.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.138.201]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA29728 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:34:08 -0400 Received: by orie.cornell.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13319; Tue, 24 Oct 95 10:33:20 EDT Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 10:33:20 EDT From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin) Message-Id: <9510241433.AA13319@orie.cornell.edu> To: tariqas@world.std.com Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalaam Alaikum, There is a society in India called the Indian Rationalists Society. It brings out a journal investigating various miracles. It has studied `body piercing' (sticking things through ones cheeks, hook in the back, etc...things that happen regularly at temples in different parts of India). It seems that there is a place on the cheek relatively free of blood vessels and nerves...and other such places in various parts of the body. I believe that dervishes learn `magic' (Al Alawi learnt snake charming?) - which is simply a collection of sciences associated with such feats. To me this learning is unattractive...but may be a way to some to develop better mind-control. Much regards, Johara. From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 09:04:10 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08822; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:14 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08769; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:12 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA24283 ; for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:04:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles In-Reply-To: <199510240046.TAA24038@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Jawad Qureshi wrote: > Also, there are MANY con artists. For example, there is one Indian > individual thatis known for disproving miracles and the like. He has > travelled all over India, and first he performs some miracles for all > the people to see. Things that are so unbelievably real, he performs > them: walking on fire, putting fire on his face, pearcing his body > (with no holes remaining), producing food items, you name it. This > guy, he does all this stuff, then afterward, he shows the crowd how > he did it. It was astonishing. Whenever there is a claim that > somebody performs miracles, he checks it out. He himself believes in > miracles, but he wants to believe in the real thing, not some > con-artist. > This is very fascinating, that someone went about the country doing that. What was or is the fellow's name? (Not the "Amazing Randi, I hope!) > > The point is this: miracles ARE a reality, but there are many fakes. > Quite true, and to add to what you have said in your overall excellent message, just as there are miracles produced by "natural" means, that are fakes or illusions, in effect, there are also "miracles" produced by jinn or humans invoking jinns. Hence while the "miracle" produced with the help of jinn is not of a "natural" order, it is still a fake of sorts - a fake of a supernatural order. A divine miracle leads humnas towards Allah; a jinn-inspired miracle is designed to lead humans away from Allah towards something that is indeed not natural but infernal. From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 10:20:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11820; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:32 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11780; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:30 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA19421 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:28 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951024142027_131700791@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: hello again Asha, and again I see a central question being raised by you in your posting. thank you repeatedly for your contributions to tariqas. have you seen any posts directly addressing these issues? Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-10-23 17:35:05 EDT, you write: >ubj: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles >Date: 95-10-23 17:35:05 EDT >From: ASHA101@aol.com >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@world.std.com >To: tariqas@world.std.com > > A while ago i asked if there were any Sufi word for the state of being >able to percieve a miracle. Hamid wrote to suggest the word transmission. > After a week or more of consideration I am moved by the depth of this >answer. > Indeed, it is even true that some religious groups feel that transmission >can be accomplished by force, by winnng debates, or impressive displays. This >is particularily true of Christian and Islamic groups, which is very >interesting since it isn't true at all (as far as I know) about Jewish groups >with whom we share lineage. Neither is it very true of Bhudist groups or, as >far as I know, with the Hindu groups. I wonder why it is so much the case >with us? What is the drive to transmission by dint of being right? I also >wonder if different Sufi groups believe in this kind of transmission. It does >seem that some representatives of some tariqas on this network do think this >way and it is curious to me. Is it a consequence of our (Islamic and >Christian) roots in the Greek tradition and belief in reason, or is it our >development of the masculine dominance and the rejection of the unreasonable, >or are there other possible roots? > Perhaps, the question could be phrased another way, why would one want a >scientific explaination of a miriacle. Is the purpose to get a scientist to >admit that there is a god (in other words to convert the scientist)? When you >put it in terms of transmission I see purpose in a miracle, it is the >transmission that makes the miracle, otherwise it is just a phenomena that >someone wants to debate about. To a primitive tribe a coke bottle dropping >out of the sky is unexplainable and could be the cause of much debate, in the >end proving that there is a god but s/he is crazy. > Anyway, thank you Habib. > Asha > > From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 10:20:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11942; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:39 -0400 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11906; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:37 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA10808 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:20:29 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951024142028_131700813@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: missionaries and Buddhism (from Sufi research on miracles) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: dear all, I take the liberty to change the subject caption, to make it more relevant to the actual contents of this message. As I understand the Buddhist teachings, a teacher is ready to teach when there is an interest shown in learning what he has to teach. (or "she"). Until then, there is no proselytizing ("missionary" work) which is appropriate. We might say that Buddhist teachings are not a matter of beliefs in this or that, but in a different way to experience whatever in life there is for us to experience. On another level of understanding, although there are an infinite number of sentient beings in distress, there is no one to save and no one to be saved. And yet infinite are the ways to be helpful to other beings, that are way beyond the issue of changing anyone's belief system! but that's Buddhist. Actually, I should add that this summer I learned of a group of Sufis in Morocco who did work with the needy (the person speaking to me was on the "receiving" side of that), regardless of whether that needy person would be Muslim or not. Caring is not sectarian. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-10-23 20:14:27 EDT, you write: > I think Buddhism does encourage people to spread the Buddha's >teachings, though, doesn't it? (The guy who brought the Buddhist >scrolls from India to China crosses my mind, but his name escapes me.) > >I also think such debates are often mostly an exercise in "feel-goodism" >(though not always). > > From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 05:36:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01456; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:36:59 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01193; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:36:46 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA23134 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:36:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:36:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199510241936.AA23134@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: (from Sufi research on miracles) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear ASHA, Jinavamsa and all: In most traditions, there appears to be a need to legitimize one's own ideas and point of view by "converting" others to one own's point of view, or to some middling "safe" within the tradition point of view -- in order to be safe from hell, and purgatory etc. It always strikes me as odd, that this need arises. The mind is a wonderful instrument and logic a great tool but nowadays we know there are quantum logics which prod us to many shades of grey in betweens of black or white. There are fuzzy logic sets which help out TVs and other self adjusting devices in our world function more realistically. The bottom line is the logic of the mind is not the reality. It is the logic of the mind -- nothing more, nothing less and it truly proves nothing about the nature of the absolute. There are infinite ways to reach the beloved -- not just one for each individual but there must be infinite ways since each moment has at least a binary if not some higher order of decisions associated with it (if we believe there is ultimately free will in the cosmos -- God does play dice with the universe to paraphrase Einsteins's dilemma.) There is this wonderful scientific formulation of quantum mechanics actually developed by Feynman some forty years ago, about the wway to evaluate the probability of some event occuring one needs to take a sum over all possible pathways connectint the two events. So at some level, one can ascertain that each decision pathway at each moment has a distinct probability and in fact continues to have a probability of occurence even should we choose unambiguously to go on a different way.-- (i.e. parallel universe are a basic underlying reality of this cosmos). Thsi summation over paths extensd both to the past and also emanates from the future! (to paraphrase Hujwiri and Pir Vilayat). Enough from this soapbox/soapdish. Ivan Raqib in Santa Monica > >dear ASHA, Jinavamsa, and all, >I take the liberty to change the subject caption, to make it more relevant to >the actual contents of this message. >As I understand the Buddhist teachings, a teacher is ready to teach when >there is an interest shown in learning what he has to teach. (or "she"). >Until then, there is no proselytizing ("missionary" work) which is >appropriate. >We might say that Buddhist teachings are not a matter of beliefs in this or >that, but in a different way to experience whatever in life there is for us >to experience. >On another level of understanding, although there are an infinite number of >sentient beings in distress, there is no one to save and no one to be saved. >And yet infinite are the ways to be helpful to other beings, that are way >beyond the issue of changing anyone's belief system! >but that's Buddhist. >Actually, I should add that this summer I learned of a group of Sufis in >Morocco who did work with the needy (the person speaking to me was on the >"receiving" side of that), regardless of whether that needy person would be >Muslim or not. Caring is not sectarian. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > >In a message dated 95-10-23 20:14:27 EDT, you write: > >> I think Buddhism does encourage people to spread the Buddha's >>teachings, though, doesn't it? (The guy who brought the Buddhist >>scrolls from India to China crosses my mind, but his name escapes me.) >> >>I also think such debates are often mostly an exercise in "feel-goodism" >>(though not always). >> >> > > > > -- q k From tariqas-approval Mon Oct 23 05:33:27 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00684; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:19:27 -0400 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00640; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:19:25 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzmwr27668; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:18:52 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Tue, 24 Oct 95 14:03:38 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Mon, 23 Oct 1995 05:33:35 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 05:33:27 GMT+6 Subject: body damage Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you, Louay and friends Pardon me for picking up the thread of an apparently-continuous conversation, but this one interests me. Dervishes DO commit acts of deliberately-caused body-damage or DCBD as a spiritual exercise and teaching technique, but not for the reasons one might think. One of the greatest constraints upon our capacity for awareness of our nature and of the All-Pervading Divine Presence is not ego, as Western psychology would have us believe, but a phenomena we understand very little, which we call time. Even a person of limited awareness of Reality-as-it-is can pass a sword through themselves deliberately, or endure a terrible trauma or injury, and heal themselves given a few supplements to the body's natural processes and TIME. To a person who lives and moves and breathes in the Eternal, whose every cell is in harmony with the Hayy the Qayyum, healing is a reality as soon as the metal moves away from the body, cell-by-cell. Most of us are somewhere between the two, having various degrees of awareness that of all health techniques, there is nothing so affective as concentrating upon the Source of all healing. What dervishes demonstrate when they pierce themselves, or when they eat glass and hot coals, etc, is not a phenomena, but a natural process uninterfered with by something we think we have to accept, temporality. Scientists and others who clamor for proof of this upon demand are amusing. They are like absolutely deaf people demanding proof of a violinist's finest performance: the means they choose for examining a Reality that is available to them defeats their own access to Proof. Find a REAL scientist, one willing to give up their own subjectivity, who is skeptical even about his or her own skepticism, and put them through a complete discipline under a capable and qualified master, and tell us what you come up with! (No offense, I hope, to the deaf among us.) "Miracles do not disrupt the laws of nature, they disrupt what we think we know about the laws of nature" - Augustine of Hippo By the way, DCBD is a catchy note progression used in some dhikr chants - but I guess you knew that. - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell, interlopers anonymous -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 00:56:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15765; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:09:30 -0400 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15717; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:09:27 -0400 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzmwu04476; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:08:59 PDT Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Tue, 24 Oct 95 14:59:13 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:56:08 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:56:00 GMT+6 Subject: miracles Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you and heart-greetings In the Holy Qur'an, one can read that for those whose hardened hearts need "proof" beyond the miracle of living a miracle, nothing suffices, and in fact revelation could descend from heaven in the form of a beautifully written book right upon such people, and such people could be taken by the hand into the realm of paradise, and they still would deny it all, saying this is an illusion or a trick. The miracle of living a miracle... About the question of proselytization that came up with this question of miracles, if you have ever been to Asia, it would not even have arisen. Yes, Hindus and Buddhists proselytize, like crazy, but in the case of Hindus, there are problems about what caste you might be accepted into. (Oh, hi there Asha!) Jews, in my experience, proselytize little, partly because there is an ethnic identity involved, but people do accept/convert to Judaism. Modern Zoroastrians of India, forget it: they don't want you unless you marry into their families, and even then there are problems, although less so than you might find with Zoroastrians from Iran. Christians and Muslims, yes, and why not, as naturally anyone who believes in the truth of their path wants to share it with others. If you are initiated into a Sufi tariqa, you should know that the masters of many aturuq were very active proselytizers for Islam, especially the Kubrawi in Kashmir, and the Chisti in present-day India, and other orders elsewhere. In fact, many masters of the Chisti silsila of Hazrat Inayat Khan (R) were active leaders of Islamic revivalist movements, what we might call fundamentalist radicals today. - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 13:32:51 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19726; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:33:09 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19617; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:32:59 -0400 Received: from mugcnx8 (mugcnx8.gclab.missouri.edu [128.206.48.18]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA06984 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:32:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199510242332.SAA06984@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by mugcnx8 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01573; Tue, 24 Oct 95 18:32:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 18:32:51 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Hazrat Bayazid Bistami [pt. 3] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamo alaikum w rahmat Allah, Brother Mateen, Is Kazi Publications ever going to publish "The Naqshibandi Sufi Way" in paperback, or at least at a lower price? I'm sorry, but, that is just way too much money. I would really like to buy the book (I have read many parts of it), but I simply can't afford a hundred dollars on a book, no matter how much it costs. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 13:47:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00179; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:47:35 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00057; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:47:23 -0400 Received: from mugcnx8 (mugcnx8.gclab.missouri.edu [128.206.48.18]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA07208 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:47:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199510242347.SAA07208@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by mugcnx8 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01586; Tue, 24 Oct 95 18:47:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 18:47:18 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamo alaium wa rahmat Allah, <> Yes I do agree that miracles have benefits to them, but the main point that I wanted to stress was that miracles are not a foundation of faith. I can not, and will not, base my faith of the fact that Sayyidina Muhammad - peace be upon him - split the moon. Rather, I would believe in him for the reasons why Allah willed that the he - upon whom be peace - was allowed to split the moon (because of his station of Final Prophet, etc). Also, I don't think that the Wali that reportedly does the most miracles is the biggest Wali. In fact, it is my worthless opinion that mane great awliya were probably some people who probably had regular jobs, supported their familys day in day out, worshiped Allah as Allah has ordained for us to worship him and firmly believed. I don't always equate Willayat with miracles. For what its worth, I think that we are on a similar wavelength, Alhamdulillah, Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 16:40:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10656; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:40:11 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10634; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:40:09 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA06045 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:40:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:40:01 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951024204000_77260756@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: (from Sufi research on miracles) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: dear Ivan Raqib ibn-Soapdish , thank you again, now for this post. I am wondering -- could you say more? -- how it is that Hujwiri and Pir Vilayat describe the interconnectedness here of past, present, and future in determining the probability of some given event's taking place. The Feynman part makes sense as you lay it out, even if it does seem to assume that there are a finite number of "paths" between two reality-moments. in peace to all, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-10-24 15:45:35 EDT, you write: >There is this wonderful scientific formulation of quantum mechanics >actually developed by Feynman some forty years ago, about the wway to >evaluate the probability of some event occuring one needs to take a sum >over all possible pathways connectint the two events. So at some level, >one can ascertain that each decision pathway at each moment has a >distinct probability and in fact continues to have a probability of >occurence even should we choose unambiguously to go on a different way.-- >(i.e. parallel universe are a basic underlying reality of this cosmos). >Thsi summation over paths extensd both to the past and also emanates >from the future! (to paraphrase Hujwiri and Pir Vilayat). > > >Enough from this soapbox/soapdish. > >Ivan Raqib in Santa Monica > > > From tariqas-approval Tue Oct 24 12:32:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26892; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:32:32 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26860; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:32:29 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA25689 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:32:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:32:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199510250232.AA25689@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: (from Sufi research on miracles) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jinavamsa: The number of paths one sums over is infinite either integrally infinite or more usually discribed as continuoisly summed i.e. Path/Surface/Manifold integrals over all space time. The quotation ascribed by Pir Vilayat to Hujwiri goes something like the conscupescence of the future is greater that the push of the past. I.E. we are more strongly future direccted rather than simpley causally pushed by "karmic" events and the natural evolution in space time. I sometimes see this as some future event analagous to electron positron anhilation resulting in light emission provides some backward in tiem directed electrons (positrons) that travel and effect the past. or in a dzikr as one of the three poles of the past communing through the interstellar medium of other dzakirs i.e us to some pole in the future. I trust this is stll comprehensibel from the midst of these soapbubbles in this soapdish whic is my natural heritage (grin). Raqib in Santa Monica Lost deeply in the soapdish > > >dear Ivan Raqib ibn-Soapdish , >thank you again, now for this post. I am wondering -- could you say more? -- >how it is that Hujwiri and Pir Vilayat describe the interconnectedness here >of past, present, and future in determining the probability of some given >event's taking place. The Feynman part makes sense as you lay it out, even if >it does seem to assume that there are a finite number of "paths" between two >reality-moments. >in peace to all, >Jinavamsa > >In a message dated 95-10-24 15:45:35 EDT, you write: > >>There is this wonderful scientific formulation of quantum mechanics >>actually developed by Feynman some forty years ago, about the wway to >>evaluate the probability of some event occuring one needs to take a sum >>over all possible pathways connectint the two events. So at some level, >>one can ascertain that each decision pathway at each moment has a >>distinct probability and in fact continues to have a probability of >>occurence even should we choose unambiguously to go on a different way.-- >>(i.e. parallel universe are a basic underlying reality of this cosmos). >>Thsi summation over paths extensd both to the past and also emanates >>from the future! (to paraphrase Hujwiri and Pir Vilayat). >> >> >>Enough from this soapbox/soapdish. >> >>Ivan Raqib in Santa Monica >> >> >> > > > > -- q k From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 25 07:16:37 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15309; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:26:27 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15217; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:26:24 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27145 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:16:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:16:37 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951025111636_77449135@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Investigation of Scientific Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jinavamsa, a cheery hellow to you-- you wrote <> Well i've learned a little (thank you very much), you did clear up that bit about wether Bhudists try to convert people and Habib helped by introducing the idea of transmission. Also some people have indicated that their own tariqa does approve overwhelming others for the sake of god, or at least that overwhelming is a means of transmission for them. I guess that the Christians and Muslims tend to call it conversion. The words themselves speak a certain eloquence. But I still don't have much clarity on why this seems to be so unique to our 'Western' civilization, especially the Christian/Islamic tradition. I have a hunch that it has something to do with the god of Reason and that 'reason' might be more bound up with our conception of freedom (and the idea of salvation) and illumination. But it's just a hunch. Asha Just read Ivan Ickovits's post and he seems to have a similar hunch. From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 25 01:32:56 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21711; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:32:09 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21676; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:32:06 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (tol-d229.sierra.net) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA25025 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:32:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199510251532.AA25025@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:32:56 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: hi ate us Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you, >Khadim's retreat to be co-led with Murshida Rabia Ana Perez Chisti at >Breitenbush in the Oregon Cascades is sold out. Sold out! Great, this saint, Rabia, she be my teacher... and Oh, what a teacher... I face what she faces! Love, harmony and beauty, tanzen of tahoe From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 25 13:31:21 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27785; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:32:56 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27666; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:32:49 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA25360 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:31:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:31:21 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951025173121_132786608@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: the tradition of converting others Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A hello there Asha, yes, it was to the issue you raise below that I was alluding, that is, your point about the missionary tendencies of Christians and Muslims, as particular to those traditions. Why the Jewish and Samarian and others from the so-called Judeo-Christian Background are different is unexplained, as well. (Why is it that the term "Judeo-Christian" is used as it is, is still another question. .... I sometimes get the impression that it is used as a replacement for "Christian", but in a context when criticizing Christianity per se would not be tolerated...) is there any use of the term "Judeo-Christio-Islamic" or some such??? (how about "Western monotheistic tradition") in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-10-25 15:01:39 EDT, you write: > I guess that the Christians and Muslims tend to call it conversion. The >words themselves speak a certain eloquence. But I still don't have much >clarity on why this seems to be so unique to our 'Western' civilization, >especially the Christian/Islamic tradition. I have a hunch that it has >something to do with the god of Reason and that 'reason' might be more bound >up with our conception of freedom (and the idea of salvation) and >illumination. But it's just a hunch. > Asha > Just read Ivan Ickovits's post and he seems to have a similar hunch. > > From tariqas-approval Wed Oct 25 09:55:12 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16054; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:53:31 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16015; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:53:28 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02662; Wed, 25 Oct 95 16:53:24 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 25 Oct 95 16:53:23 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id QAA12306; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:53:22 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00797; Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:55:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:55:12 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510252355.AA00797@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > I am talking about these phenomena being tested under laboratory > conditions. I have seen these feats performed by dervishes for hundreds > of times in their takyas and in the lab. Of course I have seen, touched, and > photographed dervishes while they were performing DCBD feats. When piercing > parts of the body that are covered by clothing, such as the abdomen, the > dervishes take their clothes off those parts. One day I had my body pierced > by a skewer and in another occasion a dagger was hammered into my skull. > Here I am thinking that some people have learned how to shut off pain. But, a dagger in the skull! Was it a big dagger? Did it enter the brain? Of course my inclination is to investigate. You account has at least convinced me that there is something to investigate. > > > Please let us all know when and where the next demonstration is. I > > am open to changing my position. :) > > > The only thing that I can imagine that could be 'useful' would be > > a demonstration. It would also have to be within driving distance > > of San Francisco CA. > > > InshaAllah, you will see this demonstration next year. It may be in > San Francisco itself but I cannot confirm this now. My intention was to send > you some photos and an article on the subject, if you would think that > they might be useful then please let me know. I'm afraid that it would be a waste of your resources, however I will send to you my address and I will be glad to look at whatever you feel inclined to send to me. > > Upon failure to recognize Allah Ta'ala's signs and miracles we > have to blame ourselves not the signs. I think everyone agrees on this. I believe that ideally we should not blame at all, however if we must blame then we should blame Allah. If we blame others, or ourselves, then we mask the sin of blaming under the guise of being acceptable. There are some that believe that blaming ones-self is acceptable and the point can be argued. But by blaming Allah Ta'ala we bring our sin out into the open. Clearly it is not acceptable to blame Allah. Now in blaming Allah and bringing our sin out into the open, we are more likely to stop doing it. > > > The age of miracles is finished > > and the age of 'The Miracle' is being ushered in by the angels. > > As any age passes into another, there is a blending between the two and > > for a while, both ages exist in equal measure. This happened many years > > ago. > > I find this very interesting; could you please elaborate more? This idea was one expounded upon by a radio presentation from 'The Christian Research Institute' called 'The Bible Answer Man'. {I once had a 90 minuite commute and I needed to listen to something. ;-) } I don't recall much now, but a very persuasive picture was painted of a changing world. One in which miracles would serve a less important roll. > Thank you Michael for the thought-provoking posts. Thought provoking? You are very generous, I have a feeling that most people just find me irritating or at best 'amusing'. Peace and love to you all, -Michael- From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 12:50:33 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28581; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:51:13 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27217; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:50:44 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:50:42 GMT Received: from deneb by venus id ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:50:39 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:50:33 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: body damage In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salaam Daniel and other tariqas readers, > Even a person of limited awareness of Reality-as-it-is can pass a > sword through themselves deliberately, or endure a terrible trauma or > injury, and heal themselves given a few supplements to the body's > natural processes and TIME. > > To a person who lives and moves and breathes in the Eternal, whose > every cell is in harmony with the Hayy the Qayyum, healing is a > reality as soon as the metal moves away from the body, cell-by-cell. Something important I have to make clear is that the dervishes' ability to perform these feats has nothing to do with the dervishes' spirituality. The spiritual power, baraca, or whatever you call it, that stands behind these unusual performances is attributed to the Master of that tariqa and ultimately to the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala 'alayhi wa sallam). In the case of Tariqa Casnazaniyyah, some dervishes are *licensed* by the Master to perform DCBD feats on other peoples' bodies even if the latter are not dervishes themselves. This usually happens when someone refuses to believe in what he sees and asks for the feat to be performed on his body. The state of mind is also irrelevant here. > What dervishes demonstrate when they pierce themselves, or when > they eat glass and hot coals, etc, is not a phenomena, but a natural > process uninterfered with by something we think we have to accept, > temporality. If I am understanding you right then I would say I don't agree. Healing is not always simply normal processes that are taking place very quickly. Take for instance the cases of instant miraculous healing of fatal cancerous tumors. In such cases the patient would not recover if he would have enough time to live, i.e. the miracle here is not simply merely the "instantaneity" of the event but its occurrence at all. > "Miracles do not disrupt the laws of nature, they disrupt what we > think we know about the laws of nature" - Augustine of Hippo After hundreds of years of this saying, the miracles that Augustine himself knew about have not yet been found to be natural. Scientists don't believe today, for example, that the sea could be split by a staff. The only thing that Augustine is saying here is that there is nothing to be called miracles. I think he was wrong. Regrads. Louay From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 13:12:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01647; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:14:21 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00985; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:13:57 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:12:47 GMT Received: from deneb by venus id ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:12:45 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:12:41 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: (from Sufi research on miracles) In-Reply-To: <199510241936.AA23134@lafn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > In most traditions, there appears to be a need to legitimize one's own > ideas and point of view by "converting" others to one own's point of > view, or to some middling "safe" within the tradition point of view -- in > order to be safe from hell, and purgatory etc. > > It always strikes me as odd, that this need arises. There is no such a "need" as you put it. The prophets (peace be upon them) did not try their best to convert people because they (the prophets) "needed" this conversion, they were simply obeying what they were told by the One who sent them to people. In the case of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allah Ta'ala 'alayhi wa sallam) he was told in the Holy Qur'an "Ud'u ila sabili rabbika bilhikmati wal maw'idhati al-hasana wa jadilhum billati heya ahsan" [call to the way of your Lord by wisdom and good saying, and argue with them in the best way]. The Sufi Masters follow the Prophet (salla Allah Ta'ala 'alayhi wa sallam) and therefore call people to the way. The Masters, like the Prophets (peace be upon them), don't call people to the way because they "need" to call them. The dervishes simply follow their Masters. In the case of individuals who want to convert people because they themselves "need" this conversion, there is something wrong. But such cases should not be used to pass judgment on what conversion really is. Salaam. Louay From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 13:36:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18089; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:40:08 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17693; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:39:37 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:36:22 GMT Received: from deneb by venus id ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:36:21 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:36:18 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <9510241433.AA13319@orie.cornell.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu 'alaykum, > There is a society in India called the Indian Rationalists Society. > It brings out a journal investigating various miracles. It has studied > `body piercing' (sticking things through ones cheeks, hook in the back, > etc...things that happen regularly at temples in different parts of India). > It seems that there is a place on the cheek relatively free of blood > vessels and nerves...and other such places in various parts of the body. > I believe that dervishes learn `magic' (Al Alawi learnt snake charming?) > - which is simply a collection of sciences associated with such feats. > To me this learning is unattractive...but may be a way to some to develop > better mind-control. There is no such places in the body, and the dervishes' feats target various areas of the body. Additionally, the dervish doesn't use the same places in his body every time he performs his feats. What about the instant healing of wounds? As for magic then I would like to say that magic is the deception of the eye so that it sees things that are not really taking place. Magic, therefore, cannot deceive, for example, camera lenses. The dervishes' feats could be tested by whatever means that one may think of. Lastly, if you could give details of the article you cite (title, year... etc) I would be very grateful. Best regards. Louay From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 14:45:12 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11292; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:46:19 -0400 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10862; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 10:45:52 -0400 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:45:17 GMT Received: from deneb by venus id ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:45:16 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 14:45:12 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles In-Reply-To: <9510252355.AA00797@kirin.Tymnet.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hello Michael and everyone, > Here I am thinking that some people have learned how to shut off pain. This is an excellent point. Pain is totally different from bleeding, infection, and healing. Pain something that one can learn to control. Additionally, pain is not defined in the same way to all people. It has psychological and even sociological components. So what could be very painful to a person could well be tolerable to another. For instance, there are some well-known cases in the history of medicine of individuals who had congenital analgesia, that is total insensitivity to pain. However, I don't think that it is possible for a normal person to tolerate the pain that is caused by inserting skewers, for instance, in the abdomen. > But, a dagger in the skull! Was it a big dagger? Did it enter the brain? The length of the blade is irrelevant because it would not all be inserted anyway. It is of the size of a normal knife. They don't insert it very deep, so definitely it would not reach the brain. Usually, they insert it for about 1-2 centimeters. If it is inserted deeper it could get stuck there and would not be possible to pull out manually. When this happens they leave it for some time and it starts to pull out gradually without external intervention. > I believe that ideally we should not blame at all, however if we must > blame then we should blame Allah. If we blame others, or ourselves, > then we mask the sin of blaming under the guise of being acceptable. > There are some that believe that blaming ones-self is acceptable and > the point can be argued. But by blaming Allah Ta'ala we bring our > sin out into the open. Clearly it is not acceptable to blame Allah. > Now in blaming Allah and bringing our sin out into the open, we are > more likely to stop doing it. I see your point. I was responding to what seemed to me a criticism of miracles because they don't help *all* people but only *some*. If a sign or miracle that Allah Ta'ala sends in order to convince people doesn't convince me, then I am the person to blame not the "inadequacy" of the miracle. This is different from saying that the person should go blaming himself for failing to see all Allah Ta'ala's signs as divinely signs. > Thought provoking? You are very generous, I have a feeling that > most people just find me irritating or at best 'amusing'. I used to think that people get irritated only when there is something irritating. It is quite a time now since I discovered, from watching myself and others, that I was wrong. It is simply that we are not logic-driven as we very often proudly pretend to be. Best wishes. Louay From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 22:10:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21044; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 22:10:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 22:10:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199510270210.AA21044@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Imbalanced parentheses or angle brackets Status: RO X-Status: >From NOORDIN%SXN1@orange.printronix.com Thu Oct 26 22:10:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: from orange.printronix.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21000; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 22:10:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199510270210.AA21000@world.std.com> Received: from VMS MAIL by orange.printronix.com (NRC MAIL Version 1.3); 26-OCT-1995 19:08:41 Date: Thu, 26 OCT 95 18:40:01 From: "NOORDIN (M.I.S) - EXT >> 112" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: body damage X-Vms-To: ORANGE::IPMAIL%"tariqas@world.std.com" X-Vms-Cc: NOORDIN Hello... I am new in this list ...and this is my first posting. I have been receiving and following the discussions about the miraculous feats or performance like inflicting bodily injury or damage without pain etc..etc.. IMHO, miracles do happen at all times all the time. We have to accept them as miracles because we cannot attribute rationality and logical reasoning to them. But there is a big difference between the miracles by the prophets, miracles by the great saints and all other miracles. The miracles of the prophets are what we know as the "mukjizat" , the miracles of the saints are the "karamahs" and miracles of others are the magic and the "sihir". Regarding "mukjizats" and "karamahs" , they are definitely godsend and they are not given to ordinary persons other than those chosen by Allah Taala whom He has given His "hidayah" or guidance and whom he has bestowed "rahmat" or blessings. These are people who have the highest degree of "takwa" or devotion to Allah. And only Allah knows best who among his creations are the most devoted. Then there is another form of miracles which differ from these "mukjizats" and "karamahs", which are categorised as magic and within this group are called "sihirs". These are not divinely-inspired or godsend. There are normally aided by another form of creation whom Allah has told us in the Quran. These are the jinns. Shaitan and Iblis belong to this category of jinns. The Quran has a story about how the prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) has been able to do some miraculous feat with the assistance of the jinns. We are also being told about how Moses (peace be upon him) managed to subdue a group of "sihirs" performers with his "mukjizats". Being experts in the art of "sihirs" , these sihir performers themselves openly admitted that what Moses did was something beyond the scope of their expertise. Being practisers of sihirs they know what is sihir and what is not. Wassalam Noordin Singapore From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 15:59:44 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08780; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:59:34 -0400 Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08765; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:59:31 -0400 Received: from [204.157.98.218] (sea-ts3-p36.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.218]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id XAA17308 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 1995 23:03:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 22:59:44 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >Assalamo alaium wa rahmat Allah, > ><benefits.>> > >Yes I do agree that miracles have benefits to them, but the main >point that I wanted to stress was that miracles are not a foundation >of faith. I can not, and will not, base my faith of the fact that >Sayyidina Muhammad - peace be upon him - split the moon. Rather, I >would believe in him for the reasons why Allah willed that the he - >upon whom be peace - was allowed to split the moon (because of his >station of Final Prophet, etc). > > >Also, I don't think that the Wali that reportedly does the most >miracles is the biggest Wali. In fact, it is my worthless opinion >that mane great awliya were probably some people who probably had >regular jobs, supported their familys day in day out, worshiped Allah >as Allah has ordained for us to worship him and firmly believed. I >don't always equate Willayat with miracles. > >For what its worth, I think that we are on a similar wavelength, >Alhamdulillah, > > >Salam, > >Jawad. Assalam Alaikum I have heard it from my shaikh that miracles are a fairly low level of attainment and that most Awliyah want very little to do with them. I have the feeling that miracles are very situational and that the real miracles are ones we don't see but should - our brothers and sisters taking care of business with a prayer on their lips. Peace and Blessings, Habib N. From tariqas-approval Thu Oct 26 23:02:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05287; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 03:02:44 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05264; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 03:02:36 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA09210 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 03:02:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 03:02:34 -0400 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Message-Id: <951027030233_90886627@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-10-26 10:56:47 EDT, you write: >It is simply that we are not >logic-driven as we very often proudly pretend to be. I agree. We hear a voice in our heads that says, "I am logical," and we believe it, quite unaware of the contrary observable evidence. :-) From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 09:08:27 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20981; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:08:27 -0400 Received: from salyko.cube.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20927; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:08:21 -0400 Received: from cubnt6.cube.net by salyko.cube.net with esmtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0t8oVy-0016J3C; Fri, 27 Oct 95 14:08 MET Received: by cubnt6.cube.net (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0t8p25-000136C; Fri, 27 Oct 95 14:41 MET Message-Id: From: thtepfer@cube.net (Thomas Tepfer) Subject: miracles To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 14:41:16 MET X-Mailer: Elm [version 2.1 PL0] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I'm new on this list, my name is Thomas Tepfer, from Munich, Germany As my English still often is not correct in grammar, orthography and style I appreciate every correction to my privat email address: thtepfer@cube.net I will be happy to correct any German notes and return them to privat addresses aswell. I read the last fife or so messages. How do you like this: Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-philosophicus Proposition 6.44: It is not HOW things are in the world that is mystical, but THAT it exists. 6.45 To view the world sub specie aeterni is to view it as a whole - a limited whole. Feeling the world as a limited whole - it is this that is mystical. 6.5 When the answer cannot be put into words, neither can can the question be put into words. THE RIDDLE does not exist. If a question can be framed at allit is also POSSIBLE to answer it. 6.51 Scepticism is NOT irrefutable, but obviously nonsensical, when it treis to raise doubts where no question can be asked. For doubt can exist only where a question exists, a question only where an answer exists, and an answer only where SOMETHING CAN BE SAID. 6.522 There are, indeed, things that cannot be put into words. They MAKE THEMSELFS MANIFEST. They are what is mystical. 7 What we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence. - End of Quotation - As far as I read some and got a few personally, I appreciate the Sufi teachings because they seem to have an extraordinary sense for the quality of information a deciple is ready for. with warm regards Thomas From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 03:17:19 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29414; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:18:35 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29125; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:18:15 -0400 Received: from muphnx8 (muphnx8.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.18]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA17160 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:17:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi Message-Id: <199510271317.IAA17160@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx8 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01062; Fri, 27 Oct 95 08:17:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 08:17:19 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: << Assalam Alaikum I have heard it from my shaikh that miracles are a fairly low level of attainment and that most Awliyah want very little to do with them. I have the feeling that miracles are very situational and that the real miracles are ones we don't see but should - our brothers and sisters taking care of business with a prayer on their lips. Peace and Blessings, Habib N.>> Assalamo alaikum, Actually, there was a particular Turkish scholar that sadi something like the following: Keramat (miracles) are given by Allah the same way that candy is given to a child: when a child is crying and is whining you give it candy just so that it can be quite, and so that the minds of those that are annoyed by the crying will ease (thinking that now the child is happy). On the other hand, the child that is not srying and is still, constantly recieves the love from its parents, though it goes unnoticed by the rest of the on lookers. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 02:11:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21053; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:35:03 -0400 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19567; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:32:52 -0400 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10267; Fri, 27 Oct 95 09:09:39 PDT Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 27 Oct 95 9:09:38 PDT Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id JAA02339; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:09:37 -0700 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA01009; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:11:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:11:28 -0700 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9510271611.AA01009@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: non sequitur X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: "Allah can put the earth into a mustard seed without making the earth smaller or the seed larger." paraphrased from Mercy Oceans just because I like it -Michael- From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 02:32:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11132; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:27:35 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10750; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:26:58 -0400 Received: from sybase.sybase.com by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA06586; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:43:45 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA08528; Fri, 27 Oct 95 09:44:02 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA20654; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:32:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:32:26 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9510271632.AA20654@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Sufism - Islam - by Shaykh Hisham Kabbani X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem "IN THE TIME OF THE PROPHET TASAWWUF WAS A REALITY WITHOUT A NAME. TODAY TASAWWUF IS A NAME, BUT FEW KNOW ITS REALITY." The Islamic Nation today is in need of good scholars who observe the correct teachings of Islam ('alimun 'aamil), trying their best to bring back what has been destroyed of the Islamic religion over the years and who are able to differentiate between right and wrong, halal and haram, and who believe in Haqq and oppose Batil, not fearing anyone on the way of Allah. Muslims of today have no one to advise them nor guide them in the teaching of their religion and the good manners and behavior of Islam. On the contrary, we see only scholars pretending to know something, imposing their corrupted ideas and beliefs about Islam on everyone. They are at every convention, giving lectures and talks about Islam from a narrow and limited perspective, not according to the guidance the Sahaba of the Prophet nor of the great Imams of Islam nor the consensus of the majority of Muslims. If scholars would listen to their consciences and return in loyalty and sincerity to Islam without the influence of governments or other powers that control Muslim countries with their money, devoting themselves only to da'wa and irshad and remembrance of Allah and His Prophet (s), then the situation in the Islamic world could change and Muslim life would improve tremendously. Our hope is that in this new Islamic year 1416, Muslims in America and throughout the world will come back together in unity, linked to one rope, Allah's Rope, to establish the Sunnah and the Shari'ah of Prophet Muhammad (s). If people will look back deeply into history they will find that after the brave work of the Sahaba, (the Companions of the Prophet(s)), Islam spread East and West and to the Far East through the dawa' and irshad of the scholars and followers of Tasawwuf (Sufism), who followed the True Way of the Caliphs of the Prophet (s)--radi-Allahu 'anhum. They were the scholars of true Sufism, which upholds the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah and has never deviated from them. Islamic zuhd (asceticism) flourished in the first Hijri century and developed into schools that had their foundation and basis of their teachings in the Sunnah and Shari'ah, propagated by zahid scholars who came to be known as the Sufis. Among them were the first four Imams, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i and Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as well as al-Imam Abi 'Abdallah Muhammad AL-BUKHARI, Abul Husain MUSLIM bin al-Hajjaj, Abu 'Isa TIRMIDHI. Others were Hasan al-Basri, al-Junaid, Imam Awzai' And later these included at-Tabarani, Imam Jalaluddin as-Suyuti, ibn Hajar al-Haythami, al-Jardani, ibn Qayyim al-Jawzi, Imam Muhyiddin bin Sharaf bin Mari bin Hassan bin Husain bin Hazam bin NAWAWI, Imam Abu Hamid GHAZALI, Sayyid Ahmad al-Farouqi Sirhindi, to name a few. The Muslim world has come to know Islam through the efforts of these zahid scholars who were known as Sufis because of their loyalty, sincerity and purity of heart. We are not hiding the fact that at that time, some enemies of Islam came to take an extreme approach, using the name of Sufism, and pretending to be Sufis while spreading strange ideas in order to demolish the true Sufi teachings and poison Muslim ideas about Tasawwuf which the majority of Muslims were following. True Tasawwuf is based on zuhd and Ihsan (purity of the heart). The great Imams of the Muslim world, whose guidance was followed in all Muslim countries, were known to have Sufi masters. Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa, (whose teacher was Ja'far as-Sadiq) Imam Shafi' (who followed Shayban ar-Rai') and Imam ibn Hanbal (whose teacher was Bishr al-Hafi) all embraced Tasawwuf. All courts and universities of Muslim countries teach from the schools of these four Imams up to today. For example, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Yemen, Djibouti, and some other countries follow the Shafi'i madhhab. Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Mauritania, Libya and Somalia follow the Maliki school. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman and some other countries follow the Hanbali school. Turkey, Pakistan, India, Ceylon, and some of the Russian republics follow the Hanafi school. The Far Eastern Muslim countries follow the Shafi'i school. Most courts of Muslim countries depend for their fatwas on these four schools and all these four schools accepted Tasawwuf. Imam Malik in his famous saying said, "man tasawaffa wa lam yatafaqa faqad tazandaqa, wa man tafaqaha wa lam yatasawaf faqad tafasaq, wa man tasawaffa wa tafaqaha faqad tahaqaq." which means: " Whoever studied Tasawwuf without Fiqh is a heretic, and whoever studied Fiqh without Tasawwuf is corrupted, and whoever studied Tasawwuf and Fiqh will find the Truth and Reality of Islam." At a time when travel was most difficult, Islam spread quickly through the selfless efforts of Sufi travelers well-schooled in the ascetic discipline (zuhd ad-dunya) required of those Allah had chosen for so noble a task. Their life was dawa' and their sustenance was bread and water. Through such abstinence they were able to reach the West and the Far East with the blessing of Islam. In the 6th and 7th Hijri centuries, Tasawwuf flourished increasingly because of the progress and effort of the Sufi teachers. Each group came to be named after its Sufi teacher, to differentiate it from other groups. Similarly today, each person holds a degree named for the university from which he graduated. Yet it is obvious that Islam remains the same, never changing from one Sufi teacher to another, just as Islam is not changing from one university to another. However, in the past students were influenced by the good manners and good morality of their teachers. Therefore Muslims were sincere and loyal. But today our scholars are dry and Islam is taught to them in non-Muslim universities by non-Muslims professors (if you are clever you can understand). Sufi teachers asked their students to accept Allah as their Creator and the Prophet as His Slave and Messenger (s), to worship Allah alone and to leave the worship of idols, to repent to God, to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet, to purify their hearts, to clean their egoes from mistakes and to correct their beliefs in the Oneness of God. And they were teaching them to be honest and trustworthy in everything they did, to be patient and God-fearing, to love others, to depend on God, and all the other excellent manners demanded by Islam. In order for them to reach all these stations of sincerity and purity they gave their students different prayers (duaU) that the Prophet (s), his Sahaba and the Tabi'een were practicing. They were teaching Dhikr- Allah, the remembrance of Allah, through the reading of Qur'an and dua' and tasbeeh from Hadith, and through the recitation of Allah's Names and Attributes in tahleel, tahmeed, takbeer, tamjeed and tasbeeh, according to many ayats and hadiths of the Prophet about Dhikr. (These can be found in all books of Hadith, including Bukhari, Muslim, Tabarani, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, etc., under the heading of Dhikr in Islam to which anyone can refer.) These Sufi teachers (real scholars) refused fame and high positions and money and a materialistic life, not as scholars of our days who run after fame and money. Rather they were zahid and dependent on Allah following His saying "ma khalaqtul Jinni wal Insi illa li-ya'budoon" -- "We did not create the Jinn nor Mankind except to worship Me." As a result of their decency and zuhd, they were able to convince wealthy people to build mosques and dormitories (khaniqahs) throughout the Ummah of Islam, offering free food and free lodging. Thus Islam spread quickly from one country to another through khaniqahs and mosques. Such places, in which the poor could eat and sleep and the homeless could find shelter, were a cure for the hearts of the poor and were a connection between the rich and the poor, between black, yellow, red and white, between Arab and non-Arab. The Prophet (s) said in hadith, "There is no difference between Arabs and non-Arabs except through righteousness." These places made people to come together from all races and nations. Sufis kept the Sunnah and the Shari'ah. Their history is full of bravery and struggle in the way of Allah, jihad fi sabeell-illah, leaving their countries, seeking the hearts of people in every place to convert as many as possible through one method, which is love. To love everyone without distinctions of race, age and gender. They saw everyone as deserving of respect especially women, the downtrodden and the poor. Sufis were like bright stars, shining throughout the world, encouraging everyone to 'jihad fi sabeel-illah,' striving in the way of Allah, to spread Islam, to help the poor, the homeless and those in need, both far and the near. They reached with their iman, the middle of Asia, up to India, Pakistan, Tashkent, Bukhara, Daghistan, and other areas such as China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. True Sufi people never deviated from the Shari'ah and the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Qur'an, regardless of the exuberance of the ecstatic utterances of some Sufis and some explanations that revealed the Greatness of God and the mercy and purity of His Beloved Messenger, Beloved Muhammad (s). The main two sources of tasawwuf were the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) as it was conveyed through the understanding of Islam of Sayiddina Abu Bakr (radi-Allahu 'anhu) and Sayiddina Ali (karam-Allahu wajhah) who are considered the two sourcemasters of the Sufi orders. Sayiddina Abu Bakr (r) was representing one stream of Tasawwuf. The Prophet has said about him, "whatever God poured in my heart, I poured into the heart of Abu Bakr" "ma sab-Allahu fee sadree shayan illa wa sababtuhu fee sadree Abi Bakrin." (Hadiqa Nadiah published in Cairo, 1313 H. p. 9). Allah said in Holy QurUan, '...for God did indeed help him when the unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one Companion: they two were in the cave.' (9, 40). And the Prophet said in another hadith "the sun never rose on anyone better than Abu Bakr except the prophets." (see Suyuti, History of Caliphs, Cairo, 1952, p. 46). There are many other hadiths explaining the station of Abu Bakr as-Siddiq. The other stream of Tasawwuf came through Sayiddina Ali (r), about whom there are very many hadiths that would take many pages to explain. Finally, the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Shari'ah, which represent obligations, and Ihsan, which represents good manners, were all embodied in the character of the Sufi scholars, beginning with Sayiddina Abu Bakr (r), the first caliph of the Prophet (s) up until today. In the 13th Century Hijri (the 19th A.C.) a new school appeared, influenced by the teachings of two scholars of Islam of the 7th C. Hijri, (14th A.C.). This school was a new school in Islam, which though based in the Hanbali school was different from it in 'aqida. Though this school also accepted Tasawwuf, it kept a much more restrictive and narrow interpretation of what is allowed in Islam than the first Four Schools. Lately, the followers of this school had deviated from the original teachings of the founders of the school and have exaggerated to great extremes in invoking accusations against Muslims based on the fatwas of modern scholars, who have taken the most literalist and restrictive view of Islam and come against the mainstream of Muslims. And these new beliefs have spread very quickly in this century with the support of a minority of Muslims who have their own beliefs and their own interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah. These people are now fighting Sufism and trying to demean the bravery and efforts of the Sufis in spreading Islam througout the world during the preceding 1300 years. As a Muslim Nation, we respect all schools in Islam without discrimination. But in return we don't accept that anyone impose his ideas on us, as we are following beliefs acceptable to the majority of Muslims, who accept Tasawwuf. In America, we are surprised to see of 1400 years of Islamic history and culture denied and rejected by a minority of scholars with their own point of view, as if the past 1400 years of scholars' following the Sufi schools and the four madhahib did not exist and had never existed. For our brothers and sisters information we are presenting the names of some of the countless modern scholars following Sufi schools and the four madhahib, who represent the majority of Muslims througout the Islamic world: Mufti of Egypt, Hassanain Muhammad al-Mukhloof, member of Muslim World League, Muhammad at-Tayib an-Najjar, president of Sunnah and Shariah Intl. and President of Azhar University, Shaikh 'Abdallah Qanun al-Hassani, President of the Morocco Scholars and Deputy of the World Islamic League, Dr. Hussaini Hashim, Deputy of Azhar of Egypt and General Secretary of the Research Institute of Mecca, as-Sayyid Hashim al-Rafai, former Minister of Religion in Kuwait, as-Shaikh Sayyid Ahmad al-Awad, Mufti of Sudan, ash-Shaikh Malik al-Kandhalawi, President of the League of Islamic Scholars in Pakistan and President of Ashrafiya University, Ustaz Abdul Ghafoor al-Attar, President of Saudi Arabian Society of Authors, Qadi Yusuf bin Ahmad as-Siddiqui, Judge of the High Court of Bahrain, Muhammad Khazraji, Shaikh Ahmad ibn Muhammad bin Zabara, Mufti of Yemen, ash-Shaikh Muhammad ash-Shadili an-Nivar, President of Shariah University in Tunisia, ash-Shaikh Khal al-Banani, President of the Mauritania Islamic League, Shaikh Muhammad Abdul Wahid Ahmad, Minister of Religious Affairs of Egypt, Shaikh Muhammad bin Ali Habashi, President of the Islamic League in Indonesia, Shaikh Ahmad Koftaro, Mufti of Syria, Shaikh Abu Saleh Mohammed al-Fattih al-Maliki of Ondurman, Sudan, Shaikh Muhammad Rashid Kabbani, Mufti of Lebanon, ash-Shaikh as-Sayyid Muhammad al-Maliki al-Hassani, Professor of Shari'ah and teacher in the two Holy Mosques, Makka and Madina, and many many more throughout Arab and other Muslim countries. Oh our beloved brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, daughters and sons, Islam is tolerance (hilm), Islam is love, Islam is Peace. Islam is humbleness, Islam is perfection. Islam is zuhd, Islam is Ihsan. Islam means relationships. Islam means family. Islam is sisterhood and brotherhood. Islam means equality. Islam is one body. Islam is knowledge. Islam is spirituality. Islam has external as well as internal knowledge. ISLAM IS SUFISM. SUFISM IS ISLAM. Finally, Islam is Light that Allah has sent to us through his final Messenger Muhammad (s), who is the True symbol of love, the symbol of external and internal knowledge, the symbol of mercy to all human beings. He is our means to God. He is the intercessor for everyone, without doubt and this is expressed in all books of fiqh. May Allah forgive us for any mistakes or deficiencies in this presentation. As-salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, The poorest in front of Allah, servant of the Sunnah of the Prophet (s), Shaikh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani President - Haqqani Sufi Foundation 7007 Denton Hill Rd. Fenton, Michigan 48430 From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 04:45:51 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18779; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 16:24:34 -0400 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15303; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 16:19:12 -0400 Received: by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id LAA28735; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:45:53 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <951027030233_90886627@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A What is a good source of Sufi teaching on Nafs? Hal From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 12:54:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18827; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:54:33 -0400 Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18812; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:54:31 -0400 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA28875 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 19:54:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 19:54:28 -0700 From: informe@best.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Zikrullah and Music Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: An Evening of Sufi Music and Chanting will be presented by the Haqqani Trust in conjunction with the University of Michigan Office of Major Events on November 18, 1995 at 8 pm in Rackham Auditorium in Ann Arbor, MI. Yassir Chadly an-Naqshbandi will be playing traditional Moroccan music on the Genowa Tariqat as well as representing Shaykh Hicham Kabbani in leading the Khatimi Khwajagan. Mystica poetry and song from India and Pakistan will also be presented, as well as a demonstration of the Sufi movement art of Pencak Silat "Seni" by Leonardo Khaalid ibn Waleed. Ticket information is available from 313.763.TKTS. From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 17:24:08 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10901; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 03:24:11 -0400 Received: from homer29.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10885; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 03:24:09 -0400 Received: by homer29.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.10/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA35584; Sat, 28 Oct 95 00:24:08 -0700 X-Sender: lilyan@homer29.u.washington.edu Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 00:24:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Re: Virus rumours (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum all I found this useful information - I had never heard from anyone who actually experienced computer virus infection. Lily ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:06:13 EDT Subject: Re: Virus rumours RE<< Subject: Horrible situation in the Southern Sudan To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I am having a very hard time writing this message. But, I cannot sleep, and feel I must say something. I have a new friend from the Southern Sudan. He is someone I have gotten very close to very quickly, and I believe in his integrity. He has been telling me horror story after horror story about the situation in the Southern Sudan. In much of the world, Muslims are the victim of terrible persecution. But, in my friend's experience, in the Southern Sudan, it is "Muslims" who are the persecutors. He tells of a civil war that has been going on for years, resulting in great misery. He tells of the great majority of people in the Southern Sudan who are Christians who are being oppressed by better-armed people from the North who are "Muslims." He tells of students beaten up at the universities because they will not accept Islam. He tells of people being forced to accept Islamic law against their will -- including numbers of amputations (the punishment for stealing) in a country where people are going hungry, and may be stealing just to survive. He tells of a situation where thousands of Sudanese refugees are fleeing from their country -- because the only alternatives are to be forced to accept Islam or to fight with the Southern Sudanese rebels. He does not wish to kill, so he left his country. I had not heard anything about the situation in the Sudan, and I do not have time to do much research. But, this situation horrifies me. On a number of occasions, tariqas members have shared horror stories about atrocities committed around the world against Muslims. But, I have never heard in this forum similar stories when "Muslims" are the agreesors. I don't know if I am a Muslim or not. But, from my limited understanding of Islam, it would seem my responsibility to speak out against such atrocities, whether or not they were committed by my brothers. Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Sat Oct 28 05:00:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01551; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:00:28 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01523; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:00:23 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id TAA07809; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 19:00:20 +1000 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 18:55:17 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Horrible situation in the Southern Sudan To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: [...] > I had not heard anything about the situation in the Sudan, and I do not > have time to do much research. But, this situation horrifies me. On a > number of occasions, tariqas members have shared horror stories about > atrocities committed around the world against Muslims. But, I have never > heard in this forum similar stories when "Muslims" are the agreesors. > > I don't know if I am a Muslim or not. But, from my limited understanding > of Islam, it would seem my responsibility to speak out against such > atrocities, whether or not they were committed by my brothers. I also do not know much about the situation in Sudan, but from your description it is clearly not Islamic, at least not to my understanding of the word. If these atrocities are happening and Muslims are silent about them while being vocal when they are the victims, then it is obvious hypocrisy. (Thankyou, Habib, for speaking out about it.) If anyone does find out any more information which can be confirmed, please post it here or email me.... I would like to (at the very least) post it on the soc.religion.islam newsgroup, otherwise I would feel myself guilty (at least) of hypocrisy. Wassalam, Fred Rice From tariqas-approval Sat Oct 28 06:08:09 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03932; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:09:11 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03924; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:09:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:09:09 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: the tradition of converting others To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <951025173121_132786608@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > > hello there Asha, > yes, it was to the issue you raise below that I was alluding, that is, your > point about the missionary tendencies of Christians and Muslims, as > particular to those traditions. > Why the Jewish and Samarian and others from the so-called Judeo-Christian > Background are different is unexplained, as well. (Why is it that the term > "Judeo-Christian" is used as it is, is still another question. .... > I sometimes get the impression that it is used as a replacement for > "Christian", but in a context when criticizing Christianity per se would not > be tolerated...) >From the perspective of many Jews, there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian background. There is Judaism, and there is Christianity. The assumption that the two are part of a continuing stream is a Christian perspective. One reason that Jews for the most part don't try to convert others is that Judaism is what some people might call a "tribal religion." I mean no offense by this -- I simply mean that, for many Jews, Judaism is the religion of the Jewish ethnic group. You are Jewish because you were born Jewish. You can convert to Judaism if you really want to, but by doing so, you are becoming a part of the Jewish people, and partaking in their historical evolution. So, it doesn't make sense to try to convert others, because accepting Judaism isn't something you can do without changing your SOCIAL condition, not just your spiritual one. It is much like the idea of marrying into another family. You may be accepted as a member of that new family, but don't be surprised if your new relatives come over for dinner! :-) Please forgive me if I've said anything stupid or innacurate. I am trying as best I can to explain Judaism from what I perceive to be the majority Jewish perspective. I was born Jewish, but do not now consider myself religiously Jewish (except perhaps in a very dep sense). So, I'm probably a lousy person to be writing this, and should just shut up :-) Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Sat Oct 28 06:15:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05355; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:16:50 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05344; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:16:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:16:48 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: body damage (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: From: "NOORDIN (M.I.S) - EXT >> 112" Hello... I am new in this list ...and this is my first posting. I have been receiving and following the discussions about the miraculous feats or performance like inflicting bodily injury or damage without pain etc..etc.. IMHO, miracles do happen at all times all the time. We have to accept them as miracles because we cannot attribute rationality and logical reasoning to them. But there is a big difference between the miracles by the prophets, miracles by the great saints and all other miracles. The miracles of the prophets are what we know as the "mukjizat" , the miracles of the saints are the "karamahs" and miracles of others are the magic and the "sihir". Regarding "mukjizats" and "karamahs" , they are definitely godsend and they are not given to ordinary persons other than those chosen by Allah Taala whom He has given His "hidayah" or guidance and whom he has bestowed "rahmat" or blessings. These are people who have the highest degree of "takwa" or devotion to Allah. And only Allah knows best who among his creations are the most devoted. Then there is another form of miracles which differ from these "mukjizats" and "karamahs", which are categorised as magic and within this group are called "sihirs". These are not divinely-inspired or godsend. There are normally aided by another form of creation whom Allah has told us in the Quran. These are the jinns. Shaitan and Iblis belong to this category of jinns. The Quran has a story about how the prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) has been able to do some miraculous feat with the assistance of the jinns. We are also being told about how Moses (peace be upon him) managed to subdue a group of "sihirs" performers with his "mukjizats". Being experts in the art of "sihirs" , these sihir performers themselves openly admitted that what Moses did was something beyond the scope of their expertise. Being practisers of sihirs they know what is sihir and what is not. Wassalam Noordin Singapore From tariqas-approval Sat Oct 28 06:21:42 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06496; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:22:44 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06485; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:22:43 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:22:42 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation of Sufi Miracles To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Steven Finkelman wrote: > > What is a good source of Sufi teaching on Nafs? > > Hal > My postings. Yours, habib From tariqas-approval Fri Oct 27 07:13:38 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07661; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:29:15 -0400 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07642; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 05:29:12 -0400 Received: from janeway.tscnet.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzngt20027; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 10:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sdavis.telebyte.com (omard.oz.net [206.61.156.157]) by janeway.tscnet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA13807 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 07:15:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199510271415.HAA13807@janeway.tscnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Scott Omar Davis" To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 07:13:38 +0000 Subject: "Islamic/Sufi Study in Cairo" X-Confirm-Reading-To: omard1@tscnet.com Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: O X-Status: Sallamwa'allacum, My name is Scott "Omar" Davis, I am one of the over 5000 US soldiers that were opened to the "Light of Islam" during the recent Gulf War.... Now that my foundation in the belief is better developed, I find myself more and more drawn to the "Sufi" experience in Islam....While in the Middle East (Abu Dhabi) I was fortunate enough to attend a "Sufi" meeting(?) --- late evening chanting, etc.---was a wonderful and mystical experience for one who had not a clue what was going on...but now find myself thinking of that night often after these few years. I have recently applied to my employer for a one year leave of absence, which if approved, I pack up my wife and two daughters and move to Cairo and do nothing for a year but study Arabic & Islam.....I believe I have managed to save enough money to make this dream possible... I would very much like any hint information anyone might have on possible points of contact in Cairo I can communicate with regarding school attendance (AL Azhar (sp?), Sufi contacts, general living requirements (housing, etc.) If anyone can give some pointers...please contact me directly at omard1@tscnet.com THX Salam... Scott "Omar" Davis