From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 23 12:03:08 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04804; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:23:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20000; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:05:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA19991; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:05:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28672; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:04:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:04:08 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Dual focus as Sufi practice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <951221124207_20729290@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Thu, 21 Dec 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > > I have read and heard that there is a Sufi meditative practice consisting of > switching the attention back and forth between two objects of attention. I do this every time I try to meditate -- and I didn't even know it was an official practice! ;-) Happy holidays, habib From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 23 14:17:54 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07455; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:39:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA28143; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:20:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA28125; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:20:41 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02386; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:18:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:18:54 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: New tariqas archive To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I have established a new archive for tariqas materials. Insh'Allah, it is current from September of this year. Our old ftp archive holds the older material. I'm afraid neither archive is very fancy -- just collections of messages within a certain time period. For example, in the new archive, the file tariqas.1995.9.17 contains materials sent to the list in the week preceding September 17; the file tariqas.1995.9.20 contains materials from September 18 through September 20 etc.) The new archive is accessible on the web at http://www.speakeasy.org/~habib/tariqas/ A link to this archive is also available at the List of Sufi-Related Resources on the Internet at: http://world.std.com/~habib/sufi.html There is also another, better HTML-ized archive available from the List of Sufi-Related Resources, as well as information on our older FTP archive. We'll try this new archive for a couple of months -- please let us know if you have any problems using it! Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 23 21:47:21 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16413; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:14:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA06856; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:50:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA06837; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:50:51 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11156; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:47:24 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA22571 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 13:47:21 -0800 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 13:47:21 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: New tariqas archive Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >Assalamu alaikum. > >I have established a new archive for tariqas materials. Insh'Allah, it is >current from September of this year. > >The new archive is accessible on the web at >http://www.speakeasy.org/~habib/tariqas/ > >A link to this archive is also available at the List of Sufi-Related >Resources on the Internet at: >http://world.std.com/~habib/sufi.html > >There is also another, better HTML-ized archive available from the List >of Sufi-Related Resources, as well as information on our older FTP archive. Inshallah, we will continue to keep the last several months of Tariqas postings online at: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/Sufi/tariqas_mail.html Salaams, Hamza From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sat Dec 23 22:15:30 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16618; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:15:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA07899; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:15:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:15:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199512232215.RAA07899@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: SUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A -- gt0009b@prism.gatech.edu (Rahim Delawalla) has been added to tariqas. No action is required on your part. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 23 22:49:59 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01816; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 18:16:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA09932; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:55:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA09920; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:55:41 -0500 Received: from vx23.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23454; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:50:09 -0500 Received: from vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-4 #8933) id <01HZ6JD7OUSGI25I4Y@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 09:49:59 +1100 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 09:49:59 +1100 From: D A Rice Subject: Zikr (Dhikr) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZ6JD7PE36I25I4Y@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: "La ilaha illa llah" Washing clean the pit of our hearts cleansing out the wells of our souls. "La ilaha illa llah" Clearing out those unwanted branches which obscure the shining pure light of our selves. "Allah! Allah!" The lovers cry "Allah! Allah!" We ask for your Grace! "Allah! Allah!" The pure seekers say "Allah! Allah!" Please reveal Your face! The crying of "Allah" cleanses our heart clears our minds pierces our souls. Without Him we would be lost in the dark forest of the world's ills unable to penetrate through the think jungle lost in the desert without water or food parched in the midst of this saltwater ocean. Dec. 24, 1995 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 24 03:40:32 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09947; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:10:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA25480; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:27 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA25475; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:25 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZ5TCCQRAO90NP7E@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:40:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:40:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Dual focus as Sufi practice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZ5TCCRTVM90NP7E@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A There is a triple-focused meditative practice that is not necessarily originally Sufi, unless, of course, like the Kebzeh Foundation of Canada you believe that Sufism originated some 8,000 years ago in the Caucausus Mountains. The technique develops peripheral vision, here-and-now conscious mind attentiveness, and subconscious mindfulness. Neophytes often lose their concentration when meditating because they fight their conscious mind. One belief is that they must train their conscious mind to get out of the way. However, this triple-focused meditative practice encourages one to use the conscious mind: Focus on an object intently with your conscious mind. Then meditate on what is in your peripheral vision to the left and right. You will notice that to keep peripheral (subconscious) focus, you have to maintain direct (conscious) focus. The consequence is that the mind does not wander, is always in the here-and-now, and the subconscious (not the conscious) mind absorbs the environment. The world that one is present with widens. Meditation-minded gestalt psychotherapists use it all the time in their practice. The world is wide. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 24 11:27:50 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05098; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 07:01:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA10462; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 06:27:51 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA10457; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 06:27:49 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa27529; 24 Dec 95 3:20 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 03:27:50 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Re: Ennea-TRI-focus as Sufi practice Cc: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Sounds and feels similar to Gurdjieff trick I heard and... applied of using periphial vision; though my sungazing practice was a sorta quantum level booster.An interesting thing about consciousness it usually arrives BEFORE the catalyst (in the sense of chronological time).(Before Abraham I am) I often suppose 2 more zekrs beside the one of Breath: One of Light; an inbreath and outbreath of light that flows thru our optic nerves. Thirdly;One only the Master Knows. If Thy eye be single Thy whole body be full of light head? Where oh! Where, One! One! No more the pair. The Breath: inflow outflow, Heart growing and a...glowing. May the blessing and peace of those around you be unto you as * is * was * will be * Mohammed.Peace unto Him and His Family From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Dec 25 14:01:55 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03394; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:20:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA04735; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:05:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA04713; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:05:30 -0500 Received: from tamar.cc.biu.ac.il by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00990; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:01:10 -0500 Received: from popeye.cc.biu.ac.il by tamar.cc.biu.ac.il (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40465; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:01:02 +0200 Received: by popeye.cc.biu.ac.il (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI.AUTO) id QAA09571; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:01:59 +0200 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:01:55 +0200 (EET) From: Pevzner Ilya To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: i am a student of bar ilan university in israel and for my thesis i am searching for the list of turkiesh tariqas in modern time - from 1924- teel now. i`ll be very glad for your help. many thanks in advance p.s. if it possible to get this list with his source. thanks and bye bye From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Dec 26 03:22:03 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13966; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:43:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA05364; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:20:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA05359; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:20:44 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08599; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 23:17:20 -0500 Received: from [206.40.96.9] (randolph-7.peoples.net [206.40.96.9]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA16784 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 22:01:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199512260401.WAA16784@peoples1.peoples.net> To: Tariqas Subject: Rumi 6.109 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 22:22:03 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- The following excerpt is published with permission of the Publisher, CEL\e Productions. 6.109 O Lovers, O Lovers, Today You and I are here And have fallen into deep water. Let us find out who knows how to swim. If a flood covers the earth With each wave as large as a camel, The birds do not have to worry. The birds think of nothing While flying in the sky. Our face shines with gratitude. We are mixed into the waves of the sea like fish. Sea and flood give life to the fish, Make the fish more lively. O Master, give us a boat. O water rise, engulf us with your waves. O Moses, Son of Imran, Hit the sea with your staff. This wine makes a different drunkenness In every head, But the Love of that Cupbearer Is enough for me. You can have the rest of it. The Cupbearer grabbed All the drunks' hats yesterday. Today He is serving cup after cup of wine To take our mantles. O Beautiful One, of whom The moon and Jupiter are jealous, You are with us secretly, like a fairy, Pulling me nicely, but not telling me Where you are leading me. O my eyes, light of my eyes, Wherever I go, You are with me. If you want to pull me toward the tavern, Make me drunk. Or pull me toward Nothingness. Annihilate me! Accept this world as Mount Sinai. Every moment we want manifestation And every moment God manifests, And the mountain is broken into pieces. A time comes when it becomes green, Another time, extremely white, clear and beautiful. One time it becomes pearl, Then later, red ruby. O the ones who want to reach Him, see Him, Look in the mountain places where He manifests. O mountain, what kind of wine did you drink? We've become drunk. Come, O friend, come. O Owner of the garden, Gardener, Why do You hold us? Why do not You let us be free? If we eat the grape, You take our turban. (c)1995, CEL\e Productions. For details on your copy of the complete Divan, contact >paneagle@peoples.net<. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 00:34:31 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12870; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:57:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA05667; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:36:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA05656; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:36:37 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04623; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:31:47 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA22863 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:34:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 19:34:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512270034.TAA22863@fastmail.worldweb.net> Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.173]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:42:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Dual focus as Sufi practice Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:42 PM 12/21/95 -0500, Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > >I have read and heard that there is a Sufi meditative practice consisting of >switching the attention back and forth between two objects of attention. >There was a specific term (in Arabic) for this practice. >Would anyone be able to give me more info on this, the Arabic name for this >practice, and some locations (texts) where I might find this presented or >discussed? >thank you very much. >happy solstice, and peace unto all, >Jinavamsa > Dear Jinavamsa, Your post reminds me of an eye exercise that has been helpful to me over the years. One brings the thumb close to the eye and focuses on every line and pore. The object is to bring it as close as possible, while maintaining focus. Then one focuses on a distant object, say a tree out the window. Switching back and forth for a minute or two has wonderful restorative effects on the eyes, especially after extended use of the computer. Happy New Year to all! Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 04:22:15 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13584; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:42:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA19128; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:22:20 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA19122; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:22:16 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA15644 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:22:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:22:15 -0500 Message-Id: <951226232215_24470791@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I must admit that I don't really appreciate this becoming a forum for Faoud to post endlessly the writtings of a teacher that if I was intereste I would buy his books or go to listen to him personally. We all have teachers who have written extensively Faoud. sincerely Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 04:51:31 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21289; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:15:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA20987; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:51:35 -0500 Received: from dns1.uga.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA20982; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:51:33 -0500 Received: from cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu [128.192.40.157]) by dns1.uga.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA34700 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:51:32 -0500 Received: (from btaylor@localhost) by cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id XAA28594; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:51:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 23:51:31 -0500 (EST) From: "B. Taylor" X-Sender: btaylor@cacimbo To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) In-Reply-To: <951226232215_24470791@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 26 Dec 1995 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > I must admit that I don't really appreciate this becoming a forum for Faoud > to post endlessly the writtings of a teacher that if I was intereste I would > buy his books or go to listen to him personally. We all have teachers who > have written extensively Faoud. Unfortunately, my friend, not everyone can afford to buy books or travel to listen to a teacher. Love, Brad From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 05:51:32 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08664; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 01:05:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA23910; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:44:03 -0500 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA23905; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:44:01 -0500 Received: from asb23 (sls13.asb.com [165.254.128.23]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA07930 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:51:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 00:51:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199512270551.AAA07930@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: fhaddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: fhaddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to: >I must admit that I don't really appreciate this becoming a forum for Faoud >to post endlessly the writtings of a teacher that if I was intereste I would >buy his books or go to listen to him personally. We all have teachers who >have written extensively Faoud. > sincerely Asha Thank you for your note, I would love to read some of what your teacher said. Fouad From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 17:51:37 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09604; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:35:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA00662; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:04:16 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA00657; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:04:14 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA24957; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:04:11 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA06622; Wed, 27 Dec 95 10:04:13 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA28549; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:51:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 09:51:37 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9512271751.AA28549@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: salam alaykum, Actually the book that Fouad is translating has never been published, and its author as-Sufuri, is unknown in the West and I feel we are quite lucky to be the first to be able to get a gander at these excerpts. The wonderful thing about "Nuzhat al-Majalis" is that it combines in an extraordinary way the Divine Law, the Path and the Stations on the Way. Anyway, the "del" key is always close at hand. --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 18:20:19 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14379; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:44:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02318; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:30 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02312; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:28 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzvyn02841; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28710 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:19 -0500 Message-Id: <951227132019_100096808@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Brad, If this is going to become a forum for simply posting the writings of a single teacher then it would not be the forum I signed on to. May I suggest that Faoud create his own home page and other wise make most of his comments his own personal. If the function of this forum has changed, I would like that to be made clear. I don't mean to knock Faoud or his teacher, it is just that since Faoud has begun posting discussion has almost disappeared, and discussion is what I signed on for. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 18:18:00 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13804; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:43:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02167; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:18:08 -0500 Received: from sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02157; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:18:06 -0500 Received: (from zi1@localhost) by sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA06290; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) From: Zaineb Istrabadi X-Sender: zi1@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) In-Reply-To: <9512271751.AA28549@serii.sybase.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. Thank you for the information below. I had myself thought that Fouad Bey was in fact making available in English, texts that were only available in Arabic. For that he has my thanks. Happy New Year, Friends. Zaineb On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, Mateen Siddiqui wrote: > > > salam alaykum, > > Actually the book that Fouad is translating has never been published, > and its author as-Sufuri, is unknown in the West and I feel we > are quite lucky to be the first to be able to get a gander at > these excerpts. The wonderful thing about "Nuzhat al-Majalis" is > that it combines in an extraordinary way the Divine Law, the Path > and the Stations on the Way. Anyway, the "del" key is always close > at hand. > > --mateen siddiqui > > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 21:04:54 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14380; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:42:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA18708; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:17:33 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA18692; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:17:30 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA09320; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:17:28 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA25294; Wed, 27 Dec 95 13:17:29 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA28660; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:04:54 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:04:54 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9512272104.AA28660@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: wa alaykum salaam, Zaineb hanim, Yes you are right, I mistyped, should read "never been published in English". Dear Asha, I'm not sure what you mean, "since Faoud has begun posting discussion has almost disappeared," since Fouad has been posting excerpts from numerous books, some by his/my teachers Shaykh Nazim and Shaykh Hisham and OTHERS (like the "Nuzhat al-Majalis" by Sufuri) for about 2 years now and some fairly lively discussions have often ensued regarding those very posts. Similarly, we have seen many excerpts from other shaykhs, including and especially our master Rumi, and no one has objected saying "we do not need Rumi's poems, we need only discussions." I think informational posts often become the root of many discussions. --mateen > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 10:28:49 1995 > Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) > X-Sender: zi1@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu > To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" > X-Lines: 31 > > Assalamu alaykum. > > Thank you for the information below. I had myself thought that Fouad Bey > was in fact making available in English, texts that were only available in > Arabic. For that he has my thanks. > > Happy New Year, Friends. > > Zaineb > > > On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, Mateen Siddiqui wrote: > > > > > > > salam alaykum, > > > > Actually the book that Fouad is translating has never been published, > > and its author as-Sufuri, is unknown in the West and I feel we > > are quite lucky to be the first to be able to get a gander at > > these excerpts. The wonderful thing about "Nuzhat al-Majalis" is > > that it combines in an extraordinary way the Divine Law, the Path > > and the Stations on the Way. Anyway, the "del" key is always close > > at hand. > > > > --mateen siddiqui > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 10:30:39 1995 > Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:20:19 -0500 > To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > Subject: posting of writings > X-Lines: 11 > > Dear Brad, > If this is going to become a forum for simply posting the writings of a > single teacher then it would not be the forum I signed on to. May I suggest > that Faoud create his own home page and other wise make most of his comments > his own personal. If the function of this forum has changed, I would like > that to be made clear. > I don't mean to knock Faoud or his teacher, it is just that since Faoud has > begun posting discussion has almost disappeared, and discussion is what I > signed on for. > > Asha > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 22:49:42 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28081; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:10:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA26277; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:46:34 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA26272; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:46:32 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA29207 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:49:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:49:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512272249.RAA29207@fastmail.worldweb.net> Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.117]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:57:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:04 PM 12/27/95 -0800, Mateen Siddiqui wrote: > >I'm not sure what you mean, "since Faoud has begun posting discussion >has almost disappeared," since Fouad has been posting Perhaps Asha should take note of the fact that people may be preoccupied with the holiday season. Although I am enrolled in several groups, my mail has almost stopped these last few days. Also, visits to our bookstore have dropped dramatically in the same time period. As we enter the new year let's be thankful for the freedom we enjoy. FREEDOM The force of freedom, with scope unencumbered creates attraction with energies unnumbered Without pressure of time, nor with schedule burdened nature spiels out her dream, the outcome is certain Wisps of thought and fancy condense and amass into pulsars of hope and will, unable to pass the black hole of love, beckoning insistently .. "Bind yourself to me .... become truly free" Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Dec 27 23:28:00 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13935; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:50:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA29121; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:28:05 -0500 Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA29116; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:28:02 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA33160 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 23:28:00 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 23:28:00 GMT Message-Id: <199512272328.XAA33160@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> Received: from slip37-229-66.ibm.net(129.37.229.66) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id smagXkCkR; Wed Dec 27 23:27:50 1995 X-Sender: oceana@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: Hillary Morris Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I must say that I concur. It takes a very long time to download these writings, and although certain of the writings may be interesting, I think that books are a better medium to relay such lengthy texts. Thank you. At 11:22 PM 12/26/95 -0500, you wrote: >I must admit that I don't really appreciate this becoming a forum for Faoud >to post endlessly the writtings of a teacher that if I was intereste I would >buy his books or go to listen to him personally. We all have teachers who >have written extensively Faoud. > sincerely Asha > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 00:31:53 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03937; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:46:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA03357; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:31:56 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA03352; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:31:53 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA19073 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:31:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:31:53 -0500 Message-Id: <951227193150_25078417@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: as I appreciate both Asha and Faoud, I wish to invite people to balance out the posting of long excerpts, which can be of value for some (I find them sent out in chunks a bit too big for my own reading style these days, but that's just one take on it), with whatever other issues might be of interest and lead to discussion, and, in the sufi image of the winged heart, to opening and flight: may we become a great flock! Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-12-27 13:21:13 EST, you write: > I don't mean to knock Faoud or his teacher, it is just that since Faoud has >begun posting discussion has almost disappeared, and discussion is what I >signed on for. > > Asha > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 03:15:56 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11332; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:40:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA14561; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:16:15 -0500 Received: from lafn.org by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA14539; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 22:16:12 -0500 Received: by lafn.org id AA04027 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@europe.std.com); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:15:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 19:15:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199512280315.AA04027@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear friends: I too would rather see discussions of the realities we face on a day to day situation and what spiritual truths or values come forward in these our simple and day to day tasks. Ultimately this is where the rubber hits the road and we show our strengths and weaknesses in how we handle these situations. We know there is no exact perfect situation for eache circumstance, however we can meet each challenge so as to optimize some value in our innerness and direct our spirtual developments. This is what I find of value in these discussions. The textual sharings have some benefit but to me are not where one finds the "beef". Thanks for your insights Raqib in Santa Monica > > I must say that I concur. It takes a very long time to download these >writings, and although certain of the writings may be interesting, I think >that books are a better medium to relay such lengthy texts. Thank you. > > > >At 11:22 PM 12/26/95 -0500, you wrote: >>I must admit that I don't really appreciate this becoming a forum for Faoud >>to post endlessly the writtings of a teacher that if I was intereste I would >>buy his books or go to listen to him personally. We all have teachers who >>have written extensively Faoud. >> sincerely Asha >> >> > > > -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 05:11:57 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21788; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:32:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA21625; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:12:00 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA21620; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:11:58 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA27043 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:11:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:11:57 -0500 Message-Id: <951228001156_100552970@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Dreams Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: When I first started reading the list a few months ago, someone wrote and asked to be placed in touch with a teacher. What I found interesting about his request was that, in describing his situation, he recounted a recent dream. Since some of us are wanting to discuss, perhaps we could talk about the role of dreams on the path. E.g., is the above commonplace? Those of you who are lucky enough to be working closely with a teacher -- how do dreams figure into your work together, if at all? I pay very close attention to my dreams but try to keep an open mind about them. I see many similarities between dreams and teaching stories. I've had several dreams that were overtly about figures whom I associate with Sufism. Other dreams have been less obvious, but seem related. thanks, Julie Hulvey From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 05:58:04 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03940; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:22:40 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA24517; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:58:10 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA24512; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:58:07 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA18598 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:58:06 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199512280558.VAA18598@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Not an article To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:58:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199512280315.AA04027@lafn.org> from "Ivan Ickovits" at Dec 27, 95 07:15:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 369 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Don't say that saints have come from suns or stars skyborn, radiant on their own. But say they're born of earth as mountains are -- birthed where seeds of grief are sown. Say their ice-white tops reflect a holy light but at their feet the jungle serpents turn. Say bitter winter births each Spring and beauty's mirror's forged where Hellfires burn. Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 06:11:59 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04790; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:27:37 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA25364; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:12:01 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA25359; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:11:59 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA28408 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:11:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:11:59 -0500 Message-Id: <951228011158_25417859@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Not an article Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Paul, I liked this poem. I thought it was yours til I saw the closing, signed Abdul Mustafa. Who is this person? I so far find no reference to him. It is not, I take it Mu.s.tafa (Ar.) or Mo.s.tafaa (Farsi) as another name for Muhammad the Prophet, is it? Please enlighten me on this. In a message dated 95-12-28 00:59:06 EST, you write: >Subj: Not an article >Date: 95-12-28 00:59:06 EST >From: bergner@teleport.com (Paul Bergner) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > > > >Don't say that saints >have come from suns or stars >skyborn, radiant on their own. > >But say they're born of earth >as mountains are -- >birthed where seeds of grief are sown. > >Say their ice-white tops >reflect a holy light >but at their feet >the jungle serpents turn. > >Say bitter winter >births each Spring >and beauty's mirror's forged >where Hellfires burn. > >Abdul Mustafa > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 06:34:33 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09546; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:52:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA26540; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:34:31 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA26535; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:34:28 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZBKK8ZJQ890O2DE@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:34:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:34:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZBKK90MB690O2DE@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I am very pleased to be able to receive portions of "Nuzhat Al-Majlis"; and I suspect that only Iblis, or the devil in us, would feel compelled to hit the delete key at the sight of such passages. On the other hand, I don't understand why we can't be treated to one such post of excerpts a day, especially if we are going to receive only quotations and no discussion, no commentary, no explanations, no explorations, no interpretations. The Word of God, or the Words of God's Prophet, are horribly mishandled when they are quoted, presented, by a seemingly hidden, and therefore lifeless, disembodied quoter. Every person quoting needs to respect his/her audience by contextualizing him/herself. In other words, what does Fouad Haddad make of the passages he is quoting? Why must Mateen Siddiqui be left to contextualize the newly translated material? I understand that sacred words will often reduce us to silence. But I understand that sacred words will often reduce us to silence. But surely we can also expect the person who presents us with another's sacred words to set up a context for discovery and discussion. If this were not so, then The Holy Qur'aan would not have constantly reiterated about its own Verses,"Surely these are signs for understanding men." When we understand, we share our understanding. So please, Fouad, share with us your understanding of what you are presenting us with. Slow down: give us a single posting a day, with some personal observations. Surely we are all understanding enough to discern Wisdom as a community. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 07:09:43 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16854; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:27:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA28655; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:09:46 -0500 Received: from access5.digex.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA28650; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:09:44 -0500 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA03783 ; for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:09:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:09:43 -0500 (EST) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: posting of writings In-Reply-To: <951227132019_100096808@mail04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like persistance, the reach of his followers. On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > Dear Brad, > If this is going to become a forum for simply posting the writings of a > single teacher then it would not be the forum I signed on to. May I suggest > that Faoud create his own home page and other wise make most of his comments > his own personal. If the function of this forum has changed, I would like > that to be made clear. > I don't mean to knock Faoud or his teacher, it is just that since Faoud has > begun posting discussion has almost disappeared, and discussion is what I > signed on for. > > Asha > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 08:03:24 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24919; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:27:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA01849; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:06:36 -0500 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA01838; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:06:32 -0500 Received: by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id AAA14074; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:03:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:03:24 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Downstate Illinois To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <951227193150_25078417@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: It is my understanding that there is a sufi community in downstate Illinois. Does anyone know about this place or community? Hal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 08:41:42 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29419; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 04:08:42 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA03414; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:41:46 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA03409; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:41:43 -0500 Received: from julie.teleport.com (bergner@julie.teleport.com [192.108.254.19]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA06877 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:41:42 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199512280841.AAA06877@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Not an article To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 00:41:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <951228011158_25417859@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Dec 28, 95 01:11:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 99 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. My name is indeed Abdul Mustafa. Recently modified from Mustafa by my sheikh. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 13:00:48 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05299; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:09:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA11216; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 07:52:40 -0500 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA11211; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 07:52:38 -0500 Received: from asb14 (sls4.asb.com [165.254.128.14]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA19773 for ; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:00:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:00:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199512281300.IAA19773@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: fhaddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: fhaddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: [1/9] Light of the Prophet (s) X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: as-salamu alaykum, In reply to Mackie Blanton's kind post: > I am very pleased to be able to receive portions of "Nuzhat >Al-Majlis"; and I suspect that only Iblis, or the devil in us, would feel >compelled to hit the delete key at the sight of such passages. > On the other hand, I don't understand why we can't be treated to >one such post of excerpts a day, especially if we are going to receive >only quotations and no discussion, no commentary, no explanations, no >explorations, no interpretations. The Word of God, or the Words of God's >Prophet, are horribly mishandled when they are quoted, presented, by a >seemingly hidden, and therefore lifeless, disembodied quoter. > Every person quoting needs to respect his/her audience by >contextualizing him/herself. In other words, what does Fouad Haddad make of >the passages he is quoting? Why must Mateen Siddiqui be left to contextualize >the newly translated material? > I understand that sacred words will often reduce us to silence. But > I understand that sacred words will often reduce us to silence. But >surely we can also expect the person who presents us with another's sacred >words to set up a context for discovery and discussion. If this were not so, >then The Holy Qur'aan would not have constantly reiterated about its own Verses,"Surely these are signs for understanding men." When we understand, we share >our understanding. > > So please, Fouad, share with us your understanding of what you are >presenting us with. Slow down: give us a single posting a day, with some >personal observations. Surely we are all understanding enough to discern >Wisdom as a community. > > > > >=Mackie Blanton= > Thank you for your post. I try to translate very closely to the original and in readable English at the same time. This in itself is an attempt at explaining this 15th-century collection of talks, which are themselves explanations of Qur'an and Sunna by the early and later masters of the path. In addition, I have added various notes of interest, often by scholars of the shari`a, which I have set apart from the main text by square brackets, and some of these notes originated in net discussions which I related back to my shaykh, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani. At first I posted these on two other forums: MSA-Net and the newsgroup soc.religion.islam, but I wanted to share the "Nuzhat" with tariqas at some point. I expected that it would not please everybody due to its legalistic tone at times. I hope that nevertheless everybody will find something that they like in it, or that they can learn from. I can say that translating it certainly brings me immense joy and growth. I am leaving in a few hours for a two-week trip. Insha Allah I would like to resume this debate when I get back, at which time I intend to follow Mackie Blanton's suggestion to post in single daily installments (or less). As for the comments and explanations, hopefully they will come naturally, if people care to contribute them, and I will do my best to address them and any questions that may arise, and hope that others more qualified do as well, with God's help. Sincerely, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 19:19:46 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13418; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:53:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAB14046; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:19:51 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA14038; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:19:47 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA10925 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:19:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:19:46 -0500 Message-Id: <951228141944_100910095@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Not an article Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Paul, in that case, thank you Abdul Mustafa for _your_ poem, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-12-28 03:42:07 EST, you write: >Subj: Re: Not an article >Date: 95-12-28 03:42:07 EST >From: bergner@teleport.com (Paul Bergner) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >Asalaamu alaikum. > >My name is indeed Abdul Mustafa. Recently modified from Mustafa by my sheikh. > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Dec 28 22:21:06 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29943; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:13:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA00269; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:24:16 -0500 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA00264; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:24:14 -0500 Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id OAA05079; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:21:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:21:06 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Looking for Dean Greenberg To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <951228141944_100910095@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I understand that he is part of a sufi community in southern Illinois, I would like to communicate with you, him. Please e-mail me. thanks, Hal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Dec 29 00:25:02 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14197; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:07:44 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA11094; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:40:52 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA11079; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:40:50 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03605; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:37:41 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA14032; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:37:40 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA16242; Thu, 28 Dec 95 16:37:39 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA29242; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:25:02 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 16:25:02 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9512290025.AA29242@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Angels Unveiled Cc: mateens@sybase.com Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: The book "Angels Unveiled" by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, Kazi, Chicago, 1995, received a very nice review on the Angel Dreams Homepage: "Angels from the Sufi view, lovingly presented by the Haqqani Foundation. Lots and lots of information, nicely organized, very comprehensive..." Phyllis Tickle of Publisher's Weekly is working on a review of the book to appear in February, insha-Allah. --mateen siddiqui ___________________________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation URL:http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html [in 9 languages] From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Dec 29 02:39:06 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27805; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:51:09 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA18873; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:39:10 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA18868; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:39:07 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA23377 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:39:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:39:06 -0500 Message-Id: <951228213905_80346730@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Dreams and dual focus Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>how do dreams figure into your work together, if at all? << My experience in working with dreams in our tariqah is that they can figgure in extensively though giving interpretations to them is mostly left for the individual. First of all there are the Shamadi practices, adapted I would say, from Vedanta and through this connection, in waking consciousness, being able to see, eventually, the whole of life as symbolic. Reading the signs, as they say. Eventually, one is able to see not only behind the curtain (so to speak) but actually from an antipodal standpoint to one's own personal standpoint and eventually to see from the standpoint (so to speak, because from this standpoint there is no duality) of pure intelligence. So dreams, as I understand it, are part of the process of awakening more than in the process of illumination. The symbolism of dreams becomes, for the sufi mystic, not an academic (or even analytic) proceedure but simply an awakening to life. Pir-0-Murshid Inayat Khan once said something to the effect, that the claim that all life is maya was a false one, unless you could prove it. To get a sense of how we use dreams, may i quote a paragraph from Pir Vilayat. "Several components of your being are trying to speak to you in your dreams. Or is it that what you think you are is interrogating your deeper self, only to find that the layers of your being are part of a many-tiered puzzle in infinite regression. Will you ever reach the elusive depths? Umpteen obstructions block your success. Yet those thwarted pieces of your being beg for recognition, cry for expression - to play their role in fashioning your being. Imagine what we are missing out by neglecting to listen in!" he goes on to say "To access the emotions at the soul level, the ordinary dream will not suffice. It takes the tour de force of awakening from your dream into a 'dream within a dream'. You dream that you are dreaming of images, while realizing that these are mere projections of your creative mind. But at the level where you are, there are no forms, no metaphors, no mental constructs, just ecstasy and realization. sincerely, Asha Also, re: dual focus practices. I was hoping that someone might know terminology for these practices, but it has been interesting to note what practices people are aware of. Pir Vilayat has been using a dual focus practice which is initially simply a practice of focus to enhance ones ability to meditate. But as the excercise moves toward the ability to extrapolate between the two focuses one begins to focus on thoughts as well as objects, (and eventually even wazaif). Especially charged and relevant thoughts are those about one's own problems of the day. Eventually the practice combines with other sufi practices in rather creative ways, such as with Ksab and the relationship of that breath practice to the experience of one's life in "the world" (but not 'of' the world). It is this ability to extrapolate that becomes such a useful a tool and and valuable experience. I hope that others will post more on these practices. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Dec 29 18:18:00 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04767; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:47:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA16783; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:18:06 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA16772; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:18:02 -0500 Received: from julie.teleport.com (bergner@julie.teleport.com [192.108.254.19]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA06828 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:18:01 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199512291818.KAA06828@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Dreams To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:18:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <951228213905_80346730@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "ASHA101@aol.com" at Dec 28, 95 09:39:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1383 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. Dreams have always been important in sufism, even back to the Prophet Muhammad himself. Generally a distinction is made between psychological dreams, which are the adjusting functions of the subconscious and unconscious mind, and revelatory dreams. the model would be the Prophet Joseph, who interpreted the pharoahs dream. Our Helveti-Jerrahi Order uses dreams (revelatory) as important guides on the way. Our Sheikh Muzzafer was a master of dream interpretation, and wrote about them. Some key points with revelatory dreams: the dream and the interpretation descend together, and the sheikh interprets the dream. This is n contrast the the Jungian point of view that no one should interpret another person's dream. In fact, due to the interference of the nafs, most people will misinterpret their own revelatory dreams. also, there is no set symbolism in dreams. Sheikh Muzzafer tells the story of two people who had the same dream, that they were asked to do the call to prayer. In one case, the person was told to prepare to make Hajj. In the other, he was told that he had stolen something and it was about to be exposed, and that he should correct the matter as soon as possible. the sheih received the proper interpretation for each. We also do not tell our dreams to anyone until we have shared them with the sheikh. Peace Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Dec 29 22:21:04 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14533; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:40:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA09210; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:17:04 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA09201; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:17:01 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA12819 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:21:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:21:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199512292221.RAA12819@fastmail.worldweb.net> Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.165]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:28:03 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Dreams Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:18 AM 12/29/95 -0800, Paul Bergner wrote: Dear Abdul Mustafa, Your earlier post was most enjoyable and beautiful. Here's a little poem of mine oin the subject. Happy New Year! >Asalaamu alaikum. > >Dreams have always been important in sufism, even back to the Prophet >Muhammad himself. DREAMS Fleeting physical impressions Fantastic sexual sessions Without inhibition, things in the night Align jagged nerves, making matters right What is a dream? What is real Does the day or the night reflect how you feel? Absent prejudice by mind so intent In the day or the night, is time better spent? Stifle desire, clergy will tell Or fire will greet you in eternal hell But who is awake and who is asleep And which are the impressions one prefers to keep Will we in the daytime, full of hope Realize our ambition, be able to cope Or should we develop our will Yield to the center, false ego to kill? And with every breath Anticipate life in death Awake from the torment of days of zeal! Retire to dreams in the world that is real Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 01:43:13 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28575; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:06:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22956; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:43:21 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22951; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:43:18 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09759 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:43:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 20:43:13 -0500 Message-Id: <951229204312_26903073@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Dreams Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Abdul Mustafa wrote: >>the dream and the interpretation descend together, and the sheikh interprets the dream. This is n contrast the the Jungian point of view that no one should interpret another <<< Actually my murshid recomend just this (as you call it) Jungian point of view. Not to say that both your shiekh and my murshid aren't both correct just that the idea that no one should interpret another's dreams, actually predates Jung. Perhaps it was Jung who observed one of the sufi points of view. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 09:53:27 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00671; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 05:13:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA17051; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 04:53:31 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA17046; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 04:53:29 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (bergner@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA02688 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:53:28 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Received: (bergner@localhost) by linda.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA24088 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:53:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199512300953.BAA24088@linda.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Dreams To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:53:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <951229204312_26903073@mail04.mail.aol.com> from "ASHA101@aol.com" at Dec 29, 95 08:43:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 988 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. it's my udnerstanding that having the sheikh interpret the mureed's dream is a quite solid sufi tradition. There are a naumber of hadiiths of the Prophet, peace be upon him, referring to dreams. Some of the hadiiths differ as to the exact weight, and my scholarship is abysmal, but a revelatory dream is suppsoed to be 1/48 or 1/70 the weight of revelation itself, i.e. what we have left of revelation. Dreams play a large role in the stories of the sufi saints. As In understand it, a number of the teachers in the Sufi Order of the West have studied Jungian psychology, and I think this is the source for their admonition about interpreting other's dreams. It's my understanding that this did not come originally from Hazrat Inayat Khan. of course in our order, it is the sheihh that interprets the dream, not every tom dick and Harry, so there's common ground here that most people should hnto interpret other's dreams. Asalaamu alaikum. Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 15:03:21 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14808; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:29:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28067; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:03:20 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28062; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:03:18 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZEV26XW0G90OJJX@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 09:03:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 09:03:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Dreams To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZEV26ZHVM90OJJX@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: There is a general problem with Jungian analysis that is also true of Freudian analysis: both are theories about who the client is prior to any particular client showing up. Both of these Westernstyle appraches to individuals fly in the face of the more communal Eastern insight that when the student is ready, the teacher will show up. For Freudians, the subconscious mind is a basement of sexual repression. For Jungians, the subconscious mind is an attic of collective shared symbols. So an analyst has to know the "manuals" on each approach before becoming someone's sheykh, so to speak. This would seem to fly in the face of true Sufism. So it can't be true that the Sufi sheykh gets to tell the mureeda what her dream means, with no input from her beyond telling the dream. The key for the sheykh has to be in how the dream is told and narrated. Any decent non-Jungian and non-Freudian analyst knows that the dreamer is the dream: is the field and ground of the dream--the characters, the setting; the objects and subjects, major and minor, of the dream; the sounds and colors and tones of the dream; the mind's projecting camera, the mind's screen on which the dream is projected; and the one who sees and experiences the dream taking place, and who gets to narrated it later on, from a source of agitation or excitement or concern: to arrive with a sheykh at a state of completion and exultation after the telling of the dream. The dreamer has already interpreted the dream in the telling of it. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 15:07:17 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16755; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:38:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28285; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:07:19 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28280; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:07:17 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA08242 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:07:17 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:07:17 -0500 Message-Id: <951230100716_81040915@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Dreams Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salaams to you Abdul Mustafa; yes yes to the sense of common ground Often, when a friend has a dream that they share with me I am moved to give some insight. I guess I just can't resist, on the other hand, when I share my own dream with a friend, that is what I want also, to hear thier insight. The difference between my insight or the insight of, lets say, a friend who isn't even a sufi and one's shiekh is not just quantitativly different but more different in kind, and so though both are valuable, they ought to be valued differently. If I am sharing my insight with a friend (sufi or not) I think it is important to make sure that they know where I'm comming from and that I should be careful not to be so persuasive in my ananlysis that I steer them away from thier own intuition. you wrote >>>As In understand it, a number of the teachers in the Sufi Order of the West have studied Jungian psychology, and I think this is the source for their admonition about interpreting other's dreams. It's my understanding that this did not come originally from Hazrat Inayat Khan. <<< Whenever I hear Jung quoted or spoken of I am allways much attracted and admiring. Is it not the same with you? But, in the Sufi Order, as a matter of course, Jung is not taught and I know of only a few sufi teachers (of any order) who are psychologist and only some of them would probably be call themselves Jungian. I thought that it might be of general interest to quote (2 paragraphs from a public speech in 1923) of what Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan did say, it is probably very consistant with your own teachings, though, no doubt with a different emphasis. "There is another way of revelation which is generally seen in the dream and especially in such dreams that are called "vision". A vision does not necessarily come when a person is fast asleep, but mostly comes when a person is half asleep. The subject of the dream is the most interesting subject especially for a man of a scientific bent of mind, how every dream, if one studies it, is an expression of a certain sense. It conveys to us something of the past or of the present of of the future. If one does not understand it, it is the lack of one's understanding. And the most interesting part about it is that the symbolical dream of every person is peculiar to his particular temperment and his particular stage of development. It is therefore that no one in the world has ever been able to gather a kind of language of dreams because the language of every person's dream is peculiar to himself, and the best reader of such languaage is that person for himself. If he were not advanced he would never know the meaning, but if he is advanced spiritually and if he knows and understands, there is no one who will understand better than himself." I find the beginning of the next sentance interesting in light of something I just read from I think Am. Journal of Med. "It is the same with one's illness ...." What I read was that in a study of diagnosing illness it was concluded that doctors ought to trust (and ask) the patients own analysis as the patients often know what is wrong with them better than can be known by just by testing. The percentage of accurate analysis which was quoted was suprissingly high. It surprized me at least, and this idea has deffinetly changed my idea about seeing a doctor. Not that I trust the doctor less, just that now I can understand the doctor better. And in dreams, no doubt, the real analysis can only come when the analyzer can speak not so much to me, or for me, but as me. Perhaps, this is our common ground. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 16:16:04 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08521; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:37:12 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05251; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:15:35 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05232; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:15:31 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26226; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:11:25 -0500 Received: from [206.40.96.7] (randolph-5.peoples.net [206.40.96.7]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03658 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:54:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199512301654.KAA03658@peoples1.peoples.net> To: Tariqas Subject: Sufi Order of the West Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 11:16:04 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Would someone be so kind as to forward contact information for the Sufi Order of the West?.... both smail and email if possible. Thanks. PE From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 16:15:48 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08163; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:36:09 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05311; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:15:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05306; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:15:43 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26204; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:11:22 -0500 Received: from [206.40.96.7] (randolph-5.peoples.net [206.40.96.7]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA03646; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 10:54:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199512301654.KAA03646@peoples1.peoples.net> To: Islamic Sufi Mailing List , Tariqas Subject: Rumi Postings Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 11:15:48 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Recently, I have posted excerpts from the new translations of Rumi's "Bahr-i Recez" of this Divan. I wish to thank those who have responded with their enthusiastic comments. However, I have received one (1) post from one (1) newsgroup indicating that this person disapproved of the postings. My intent in the postings was not to "commercialize" this work, but to bring it to interested parties for their own considerations. In future postings, I will delete the reference to purchasing the work. And, should I receive sufficient objections from a particular newsgroup, I will delete that group from the postings. In the spirit of community and harmony.... Panther Eagle paneagle@peoples.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 19:10:02 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25436; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:44:37 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA14269; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:16:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA14258; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:16:28 -0500 Received: from lafn.org ([206.117.18.1]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08728; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:10:28 -0500 Received: by lafn.org id AA18476 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:10:02 -0800 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:10:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199512301910.AA18476@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: [Louis4@cromer.demon.co.uk: Re: QUANTUM-D: New Book] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear friends: I am including the following private communication that I have been following for your perusal. I personally am fascinated about the attempt to quantify consciousness in some scientific or pseudo scientific manner, and this recent article has some insights of interest. If this offends you, I extend my apologies, and please just delete. Raqib in Santa Monica ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: Louis4@cromer.demon.co.uk (Louis Gidney) To: an525@lafn.org Subject: Re: QUANTUM-D: New Book Date: Thu, 28 Dec Ivan Ickovits, I have appended below: Item A. A recently re-written form of the 1989 piece. Item B. The item you requested as it appears in the ANPA11 Proceedings. It is hardly a 'paper'. Item B - I set up as a problem-solving exercise in 'design' (which is my particular expertise - my interests are somewhat eclectic - background: Royal College of Art (Industrial Design); R&D (OCR); misc other R&D posts; self-employment; etc; age 56; 'semi-retired'). It is worded for a multi-disciplinary audience of physicists, mathematicians, computer people and philosophers, whose concern was re-thinking the foundations of physics with a 'process' bias. *The thesis I put before them was that (i) their concerns about foundations of physics and (ii) the problem of the arising of consciousness from physical processes, must of necessity be solved _together_ or not at all, an that this required revising the notion of 'exist'. I have re-written it recently (item A) with the emphasis on what David Chalmers has called 'the hard problem of consciousness' (ie, how it is that there is consciousness at all). Hope its helpful, Regards Louis Gidney Item A ------------------------ start ------------------------------- "What-it-is-like for A to be conscious" is: "something 'exists-for' A". ===================================================================== The following seems to offer at strong clue to how systems that support consciousness are constructed. It hinges on regarding consciousness as a case of `relative existence', where: 'A is conscious of x' becomes: 'x exists for A'. 'Relative existence' or 'existence-for' comes from re-thinking the basis of physics approximately in line with the process-ideas of A. N. Whitehead. The implication being that maybe the `hard problem' can be solved only by _simultaneously_ reinterpretting our knowledge of physics while at the same time clarifying our ideas of what we mean by consciuosness. My proposal involves deleting `absolute objective existence' from our vocabulary, and satisfying our conviction that the world is real and connected, by envisaging it as a flux of pure activity which is non-substantial - in essence more like energy than traditional matter. This is pretty much in accord with modern physics anyway. We then have to imagine that material particles and their associated spatial extension are produced by acts, within which one particle can have a relative (and transitory) 'existence-for' another - but no absolute existence. This is not consciousness, but it is the germ within 'matter' that makes it possible for 'mind' to arise, ie for systems to be conscious - for something to 'exist for' them. The progression from this bare, undifferentated, transitory 'relative existence' of a particle within the simplest quantum act, to the richness of human consciousness, would require an entropic principle such that when the 'spontaneous' interactions between the parts of a system become constant (or constantly repetitive), the 'relative existence' of the parts to one another is neutralised/habituated, in such a way that the formerly separate 'experiencing' of the parts merges into a unified 'experiencing activity' directed outwards. If this view is sound, it would follow that for entities (knots of process) to be conscious they must be constructed in such a way as to take advantage of, or 'concentrate', relative existence in this way. This would rule out systems of silicon chips 'functionally equivalent' to biological nerve networks supporting consciousness, because the processing that goes on in them does not have an intimate relation to underlying physical processes. However it does raise the intriguing question of what substances and/or states of matter and components might do so. Present understanding in this area is rather like the electromagnetism before the discovery of the electric current and the work of Faraday and Maxwell. Once we get the hang of `relative existence' we might soon learn to build the special components incorporating it. Probably some would not in be in any sense conscious but nevertheless be clearly seen to `channel' relative existence. An advantage of non-living systems, is that they do not have the accidental 'overhead costs' of reproduction and metabolism. We might find that intelligence, artificial or otherwise, is not needed except for communication. At the least this principle provides a 'handle' on how conscious devices might be made, which the purely behaviouristic Turing test does not. 'Existence-for-others' and how Dualism arises. -------------------------------------------- Knowledge of physics (indeed all science) starts with experience and gives results which have meaning in further experiences. But it is exactly the having of experience that consciousness is about. Our concepts of what we mean by `exist' and `real' are also derived from experience via centuries of thought that may have gone astray and may now need revision. So the `hard problem' of consciousness is intimately bound up with our ontological conceptions of the nature of the world and our place in it. (Schopenhauer's 'world knot'). Since we have been conditioned to a dualistic way of thinking by centuries of use, the way out is intricate and delicate. Because it is delicate, it requires sensitivity. I have coined the term relative existence to evoke a fresh return to observation of how we find the world to be in our experience. Descartes' 'cogito' strikes me as contrived - not least because he was adult. Babies do not pop into life, look around, conclude 'I think therefore I am' then proceed to ruminate on whether some of the objects around them are conscious beings like themselves. From evidence of maternal deprivation, `wolf boys', etc, it looks as if consciousness is not entirely an innate property of brains, but largely a product of interaction with others. Evidence from solitary confinement, etc, suggests that interaction may even be needed to sustain consciousness. If this is so, solipsism could not arise for if human consciousness, unlike simple awareness, is a product of interaction between people, then the world must come to exist for us in infancy as a shared experience, and is public from the very start. To regain an accurate ontological foundation for the sciences I think we have to look very carefully at the kind of existence things have for us in direct experience, including early experiences, and how we have proceeded from there to where our scientific conceptions are today. My own suggestion is that things as experienced are not primarily felt to exist `in themselves' nor `for me'. This comes later. Rather the mode of existence things have as experienced, might suitably be called `existence for others' or `existence to others'. This does not mean that we have other people's experiences, but we do spend a lot of time imagining how other people see things. This gives those things what some might call an `overlayer of meaning', and others might regard as essential. Either way it is a type of existence that is neither objective nor subjective in its primary immediacy. It may be seen as subsuming both as special cases which have grown out of it: First `existence-in-itself' may be seen as that special case of primary `existence for others' where the `other' in question is replaced first by a supreme other; an all-knowing God, later by His secular carbon-copy: the 19c `impartial objective observer'. Either of these, bestows upon everyday things an `existence feel' which is different from the purely personal one out of which awareness grew in the first place. Nothing else in experience (itself an activity) suggests the concept of absolute existence, or the need for it. Second, subjective `existence for me' arises from the `for others' kind only after appropriate socialisation of the individual (not the same in all cultures). If, as seems to me, a fresh and careful phenomenological analysis of experience more or less deconstructs the concept of 'absolute objective existence' then we have to find another way to satisfy our conviction that the world is real and enduring. Are there serious conceptual difficulties in rethinking the physical world as essentially `process' rather than `existence' - along the lines of A. N. Whitehead, William James, etc, with the benefit of more experimental data than they had? For if we can, then the conceptual scheme described would embrace consciousness in an uncontrived and natural way To what extent would we be guilty of anthropomorphism (and does it matter) if we project onto nature the idea that the relative existence of one thing to another can occur within fundamental physical processes? After all we can't have it both ways: either we want to have a " property of `matter' " that allows consciousness to arise from it, or not. I suspect that _if we don't put it in, we don't get it out_. Evidently it is in there since we ourselves are conscious. Summary. According to the conceptual scheme outlined above, inasmuch as a conscious subject is not an object (but in some sense its opposite) no amount of signal processing complexity in an artificial brain object can ever make it happen that there is something that `exists for' that brain object, however it may behave or whatever it may report, unless the natural `relative existence' inherent in physical processes is used and made to `concentrate' in some sense. These ideas provide a guideline to work to, where we now have none, except for a semi-magical belief that by imitating perceptual mechanisms somehow, complexity alone will one day convert objects into subjects. Louis Gidney - (louis4@cromer.demon.co.uk) Item A ------------------------- end -------------------------------- Item B ------------------------ start ------------------------------- On Designing a New Ontology for Natural Philosophy -------------------------------------------------- Physics has needed a new foundation since quantum effects were discovered at the turn of the century. One is proposed which, as a bonus, clarifies how consciousness arises from physical processes. It resembles Leibnitz's Monodology but using modern insights, it is less contrived. It involves a radical paradigm shift. To make sense of it, several topics each vulnerable to dispute taken separately, must be juggled simultaneously. It is presented as a "design experiment". We abandon identification of Reality with Being, and identify it with Activity. Existence is relativised, seen as deriving from activity, and as the "germ" within physical processes from which arises awareness (the Relative Existence of an object _for_ a conscious subject). The following summary gives an overview: 1) It is a category-mistake to say that events `exist', because they are not objects. The are time-like. The proper predicate is `occur'. 2) The Real "primary stuff" of the world is assumed to be a flux of quantum acts. So we should use `occur' to predicate them, not `exist' 3) Spatial extension and material particles are produced by acts, within which particles have only a Relative (and transitory) Existence _for_ each other but not Absolute Objective Existence (that concept is dropped). 4) Awareness (objects _existing for_ a subject) is a particular form of the Relative Existence in all physical processes, which arises in complex systems when they intereact holistically with their surroundings. From (3) to (4); from the bare, undifferentiated, transitory existence of a particle within the simplest quantum act, to the richness of human experience is a long road. But using these ontological ideas it is a more promising road than than the one starting from molecules conceived as existing "classically". To travel it we need, in addition to the idea that Relative Existence arises within acts, an entropic principle according to which, if interaction becomes constant (or constantly repetitive), Relative Existence fades or is neutralised inside a system, such that the separate "experiences" of the parts merge into a unified "experiencing" activity directed outwards. The aim here is not to describe every hierarchical detail, but only to remove conceptual blockages and to offer a principle for, the evolution of consciousness from bare Relative "Existence-for", by the merging of simpler systems of activity. 5) Solipsism does not arise if we assume that human consciousness, unlike simple awareness, is a product of interaction between people rather than a property of individual brains. Then the world must come to exist for us in infancy as a shared experience, and is public from the start. 6) Thus our primary notion of existence lies in the habit of perceiving things while simultaneously imagining how they "exist for" others, including the viewpoint of an impartial objective observer. This shows the origin of the concept of Absolute Objective Existence as an instance of "existence for others". Nothing else in experience (itself an activity) suggests the concept of absolute existence, or the need for it. 7) Traditional atomism was "bottom up" (building the universe from simpler parts). Perhaps in rejecting it we must proceed "top down" from appearances. This would side-step the implausible merging of disembodied acts. In the world _as given_ they are "merged" already. The proposed scheme would then have the role of predicting that experiments should reveal a bottomless world of discrete, act-like processes. Gidney,Louis (1989) "On Designing a New Ontology for Natural Philosophy" In: (Manthey, M.J. ed.) Proceedings of the 11th Annual International Meeting of the Alternative Natural Philosophy Association: Objects in Discrete Physics" (ANPA-11) held at the Department of the History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge, England, September,1989. Louis Gidney - louis4@cromer.demon.co.uk Item B ------------------------- end -------------------------------- In message <199512281505.AA07353@lafn.org> you wrote: > > > Dear Louis: > > I am taking you up on your kind offer about more details re > consciousness in an ontological framework etc. > > This is one fascinating area that to which I have great interest but lack > a language framework to engender rational discussion. > > Ivan in Santa Monica -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 20:05:10 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07713; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:23:25 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA17275; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:05:14 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA17266; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:05:12 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04122 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:05:10 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:05:10 -0500 Message-Id: <951230150509_27408889@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreams Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On 95-12-30 10:05:27 EST, Mackie Blanton wrote: >There is a general problem with Jungian analysis that is also >true of Freudian analysis: both are theories about who the client is >prior to any particular client showing up. Both of these >Westernstyle appraches to individuals fly in the face of the more >communal Eastern insight that when the student is ready, the >teacher will show up. Could some not benefit from a psychological grounding before working with a teacher of the Path? That is, without mistaking the analyst for the teacher? I hope I am not assuming this all-too common internet behavior: asking a question because I want later to show how much I know about the subject. But the truth is that I have been studying dreams as theory and "in the field" for about 10 years, and how I got into them was somewhat as a result of studying Sufi stories, as mentioned. I agree with you, that everything in the dream is the dreamer, just as in teaching stories, where the characters often can be seen as different aspects within one psyche. Something that agitates us in a dream can be seen to have a different meaning when looked at dispassionately. So I guess that I would disagree with you that > it can't be true that the Sufi sheykh gets to tell the mureeda what >her dream means, with no input from her beyond telling the dream. >The key for the sheykh has to be in how the dream is told and >narrated. Perhaps I just prefer to think this way, but it seems to me a true spiritual teacher would be able to acess a certain level of interpretation that went beyond the symbol system of the dream, and even beyond the telling. Call it the source of the dream as opposed to its form or manifestation. Think of the story of Moses and Khidr. Our culture teaches us to abhor certain actions, to shrink from them. So a dream often causes a feeling of terror which prevents us from any learning through that dream. Like real life too, eh? The affect of the dream can sometimes mask its point. My attitude towards dreams has taken a sharp turn lately, which I can't account for, except through certain dreams I've had recently. Basically, I've lost interest in using them for problem-solving, self-improvement, etc. as well as in picking them apart. On another level, through poetry and art, I've become more intensely involved with them, just as things to consider. There seems to be a time element involved. Enjoying everyone's responses and appreciative of your sharing them, Julie H. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 21:05:41 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26198; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:29:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA20468; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:05:46 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA20441; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:05:42 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05451 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:05:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:05:41 -0500 Message-Id: <951230160441_27445589@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Dreams (kinda long) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-12-30 10:05:27 EST, MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu writes: >There is a general problem with Jungian analysis that is also >true of Freudian analysis: both are theories about who the client is >prior to any particular client showing up. Back in the Seventies, I spent a lot of time with practitioners of Gestalt Therapy. In that approach, the client/dreamer/student is assumed to have all the information about themselves, and the "therapist" is just there to guide the studen't attention past their own resistance to knowing consciously about themselves and their life. Something called the "Unconscious" in other systems is seen as a mode of knowing whose language most of us have forgotten how to speak; part of the goal is to recover our innate ability to spontaneously understand that language in the moment (without recourse to systems or experts to interpret it for us). In dreams, each item in the dream is seen as an expression of some basically disowned (unconscious) aspect of our own being and potential. The total configuration of the dream -- each object and feeling and player, plus the relationships between them -- is an existential message from the dreamer to the dreamer about their life, and the dream itself an attempt of our inherent self-organizing and self-healing process to work with the stuff of our life. In the Gestalt approach, the dream is worked with by the dreamer recounting it in present-tense and then "playing the part" of each item, using their innate knowingness to give it a voice and bodily expression and thus eventually re-owning the disowned potential represented by the "symbol." Where there are intrapsychic conflicts, the dream parts talk to one another in the famous Gestalt "double-chair" dialogs, duking it out and coming eventually to a better integration between them. Whatever the student's style of "going unconscious" is in life, they'll do it here too. The role of the guide is to point out where the student falls/jumps into habitual/unconscious behavior/feeling and give them the support to try something different and move beyond habit and conditioning. The "course of therapy" is presumed to be at an end when things begin to be worked out in the dream itself; the organismic self-regulation and self-healing has re-asserted itself and is free to function "as designed," free of the ego's interference. This approach does not rely on canned symbol systems or the need of a student to shoehorn themselves into the Procrustes' Bed of a particular system, and it tends to avoid the danger of the "therapist" projecting their own material into the client's process. Some people have Freudian dreams, some people have Jungian dreams; studies have shown that people will learn to dream in the style preferred by their therapist. Then there are some of us who just do not dream in visual terms. My personal internal orientation is far less visual than tactile-kinesthetic and auditory. Many of my dreams have no visual symbology at all; there are sensations of texture, mass, movement, and density, and affect. Sometimes I just hear music, with no affect or sense of significance. There's obviously something going on here besides what falls into the usual interpretations. On the other hand, maybe I'm psychotic... :-) The sufis, of course, recognize that there are different kinds of dreams which serve different purposes. Some are just processing the day's garbage impressions, some are self-healing, and some are spiritual. When I was doing therapy for a living, I had a client who had genuinely precognitive dreams. I didn't see any point in processing them psychodynamically, and referred her to a spiritual teacher who I figured could help her come to terms with her gift. In some tariqats (notably some of the Naqshbandi), much of the actual esoteric teaching and initiations are done though the dream, the shaikh entering the dream of the student and teaching him/her there. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Dec 30 21:21:28 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00995; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:42:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA21395; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:21:34 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA21378; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:21:31 -0500 Received: from julie.teleport.com (bergner@julie.teleport.com [192.108.254.19]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA12271 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:21:29 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Received: (bergner@localhost) by julie.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29618 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:21:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199512302121.NAA29618@julie.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Dreams To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:21:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <951230100716_81040915@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "ASHA101@aol.com" at Dec 30, 95 10:07:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2283 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum, Asha. thank you for your thoughtful most-recent post, and the quote from hazrat Inayat Khan. I agree that the symbols in most dreams (and illnesses!) are person-specific, i.e. a dog may be loyalty to one person and a childhood terror to another, ewtc etc. This is also a point of the Jungians, and of medical healing systmes such as Process Oriented Psychology. I studied Jung for some years, which has included recording virtually all my dreams for more than five years. for most of a year I did semi-formal Jungian "dreamwork" on each dream, and learned a lot and gre a lot from that. I am also a "working poet" and I notice that much of what is accomplisehd in the finer Jungian dreams occurs with poetry (a painter friend of mine says the same about his visual arts) i.e. when I am writing a lot of poetry, I don't dream at all; when I stop writing the poetry, the dreams start again. In this kind of dream work, it is always assumed that everything in the dream is an expression of some part of the dreamer. I've changed my view of dreams since experiencing a different -kind- of dream , especially through my affiliation with the Helveti-Jerrahi order. I think most of the main pints about "Jungian" dreams do not apply to revelatory dreams. Think back to the Pharoah and Joseph. What part of the pharoahs psyche was being healed by that dream? None of it -- it was a revelation (inshallah) that Jospeh might be recognized and that the people of Egypt might not suffer from the famine. Joesph and the dream cam as a package, like two halves of a treasure map. A critique I have on Jung is that he did not seem to recognize beings in the sublte and spiritual worlds. Maybe an angel is not proejction of the psyche, but a real created being. Maybe an angel, or a saints, or a sheikh, or Allah delivering a dream to you is like the UPS man coming to your door -- what's in the package is from them, not from your psyuche. In my experience, this type of revelatory dream is quite stunning in its clarity, unexpected in its symbolism, and has a sense of being more real than the phycial reality, not less real or "dreamy." May allah continue to bless us with guidance on the straight path to realtiy and himself. Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 11:49:54 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09541; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:37:36 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21048; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:55:38 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21031; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:55:36 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21520; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:50:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:50:54 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: posting of writings To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <951227132019_100096808@mail04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these postings not be quite so voluminous. Insh'Allah, perhaps understanding of each other's perspective, and a willingness to seek alternatives, might be useful. Among other things, not everyone has the same priviledge of access to their email account at a low cost or free. If someone pays for the time that it takes to download their mail, or pays for the volume of messages received, dozens of postings can be quite expensive. On the other hand, many of us clearly appreciate the value of these postings, and it is the foundation of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah). One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access to the Web could look them up. That would also have the benefit of making these postings better organized than is possible in my email reader at least, and turning them into a resource for future use. I downloaded a file of all the sincerity postings, myself, because they were of particular interest. How does that sound to folks? Yours, habib rose host of tariqas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 12:00:51 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11298; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:44:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA21661; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:05:49 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA21652; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:05:47 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25151; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:01:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:01:51 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: posting of writings To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Just to make it clear, for those new to the list, this is NOT a moderated list. With the rare exception of material that is highly offensive or libelous, I do not intervene with what people choose to contribute to this list. Even in those cases, I attempt, Insh'Allah, to deal with the situation as tactfully as possible (albeit always not as tactfully, fairly or effectively as I'd like -- I have made some major mistakes). I have never "stopped" someone from making postings, nor removed anyone from the list. That being said, it is also quite important that people share their feelings about the content that others are sharing with the group. Abdkabir's message below, therefore, is precisely as welcome as the postings he comments upon. Yours, habib rose host of tariqas On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote: > I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot > afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages > regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are > available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in > advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto > this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the > sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which > we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been > silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears > emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and > undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this > group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium > for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like > persistance, the reach of his followers. > > On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > > > Dear Brad, > > If this is going to become a forum for simply posting the writings of a > > single teacher then it would not be the forum I signed on to. May I suggest > > that Faoud create his own home page and other wise make most of his comments > > his own personal. If the function of this forum has changed, I would like > > that to be made clear. > > I don't mean to knock Faoud or his teacher, it is just that since Faoud has > > begun posting discussion has almost disappeared, and discussion is what I > > signed on for. > > > > Asha > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 12:17:11 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15969; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:59:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA22552; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:20:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA22547; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:20:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04061; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:18:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:18:11 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: posting of writings To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <951227132019_100096808@mail04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I just learned something! :-) In the past, I would have said that "sharing from our hearts" was the most important thing. However, I have just realized that this is partly a bias based upon being raised in a culture where the individual is the most important thing. Other cultures have other types of sharing -- including sharing hadith, teaching stories etc. In some traditions, including classical sufism (as I understand it), what your teacher says is more important than what you say. In fact, the process of honoring your teacher by sharing their works is an important process of your own spiritual growth. Insh'Allah, tariqas can serve as a vehicle for us to learn to understand and appreciate our different approaches to spiritual growth -- and our own biases as well. Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 12:32:26 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21996; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:18:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA23550; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:36:03 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA23541; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:36:01 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08324; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:33:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:33:26 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I would like to suggest a thread of discussion around the issue of individual vs. communal/group approaches to spiritual growth. It seems to me that this issue may be at the root of some fundamental differences in approach by people involved in Sufi and other spiritual path(s). In fact, this issue may be so central to our world-view that it will be difficult to truly understand people from the "other camp" unless we deal with it. My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control, perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps). Whattyathink? habib rose